Everyday Dance Fieldwork Diary: Interview with Joanna Zawadzka (May 14, 2014)

Interview with Joanna Zawadzka

No Lights, No Lycra – London coordinator

Wednesday May 14, 2014

18.10 – 18.50

The Future Laboratory, Spitalfields, London

Audio Interview with Joanna Zawadzka

Transcript

Note:

Originally from Melbourne, Australia, Joanna Zawadzka has been the London coordinator of the dance event, No Lights, No Lycra for the past two years. Previous to running the London branch, Joanna helped set up and run the New York division of No Lights No Lycra for ten years. NLNL is a labour of love. In her day job, Joanna works as a graphic designer.

I decided to wing it in terms of what questions I would ask Joanna and let the interview take its own course. Having spoken to her briefly when I attended NLNL, I knew she had definitive views on dance and that our conversation would take a flow of its own.

So I’m about to interview Joanna who is the London coordinator, convenor of No Lights No Lycra who has kindly agreed to be interviewed by me so um, do you mind telling me your age, or thereabouts?

31.

Ok and do you live in London?

Yes.

And your profession?

Graphic designer.

Ok thank you. Firstly are you trained in any particular dance forms, or forms at all?

No, not at all.

Ok, can you tell me a bit about actually how you got involved in NLNL, like what happened?

So I was living in New York, for a few years and just after I’d moved there, a friend approached me and said that one of her best friends had started this dance thing in Melbourne, and she was also from Melbourne, and that she wanted to bring it to New York and she wanted both of us to start this thing.

Can I interrupt you there? Where you interested in dance before this?

Loved it. Yeah I love to dance, yeah definitely, but you just never get the opportunity to.

So you liked, what kind of dancing would you do normally, you know before you got involved in NLNL?

Well I never did any classes of any kind because of the fact that I was intimidated by people of my age would generally have done it for a certain time, unless you go to an exercise class, like a Zumba class or something, there’s no.. you’re always in front of these big mirrors in this room where it’s quite...

It can be quite confronting?

Yeah definitely and everyone’s in lycra, everyone’s really good and you‘re the one who sucks at the back, so um, yeah it was just whenever you were out at a club.

You just loved social dancing?

JZ
Yeah definitely.

LS
And was there any kind of particular, like did you prefer 80s or like, hip hop or funk?

Hip hop.

Ok sorry. I interrupted you so keep going.

Yep so she suggested that we start this thing in New York so with the help of a couple of other friends um, found some speakers and started making playlists. The first time we did it, we found a venue where she actually used for her other side of her business and um yeah, she suggested it as...

[interrupted by Joanna’s colleague briefly]

She suggested it as a venue which was perfect and then we, the first time we did it, it was five of us.

Wow!

Yeah the organisers and our friends so we thought, yeah so well all thought this is a bit strange but we all felt so amazing afterwards that we thought, we got to keep doing this even if it is just the five of us.

Yeah, let’s keep doing this. And um, so did you get more people eventually?

Yep, so it just kept building word of mouth and my friend who I was doing it with, she had an ice cream business and they had a shop in the same, er, in Greenpoint that had window space and everyone she met she told. Every interview she did, she mentioned it so it got quite a lot of um word of mouth. New York Times picked it up and after that, it was just crazy.

So how many people would come?

JZ
Fifty.

God, fifty really?

Yeah but on average it was still twenty, thirty. Thirty was quite normal.

And how did you find, because I’m interested if there is any difference, if there is, in how you find doing it in London? In terms of the people who come and just how they react to it as opposed to New York?

So different.

So what’s the difference?

I guess, well I mean both cities are full of people from overseas. They’re both big cities. People come here for work, but there is that underlying culture here, what I've been able to put it down to of Brits sort of staying in a lot more. New York, there’s a nightlife for example. You finish work and you don’t eat dinner til 9 or 10pm and you don’t go out til 11 – midnight whereas here the public transport, everything’s shut down and people are home by 10. So that in itself has caused, I think a cultural thing where if it's cold outside or if it's grey, which happens a lot, people stay indoors or go to the pub and that, reserved nature of Brits as well. To not to make fools of themselves or embarrass themselves. Yeah I think, in New York, people want to try everything. They don’t want to be missing out on anything.

So if it’s the new thing, they actually want to try it?

Yeah so I think just people’s openness to trying new things was definitely there.

So I know that it’s dark and having been to the one [NLNL] the one time, did you notice any difference though in terms of the way people danced in New York?

The style?

Yeah or the energy that was in the room. Was there any difference in the movement?

I think in New York there were a few times where we had some, not professional dancers but semi-professionals that sort of. You can’t see them exactly but you know they’re doing something more complex than you.

LS
And how do you know that?

Because you see limbs flying to rhythms or just before that rhythm you see a movement happening that strikes on that rhythm perfectly. Or you see them in weird angles. It’s not just vertical and left and right. They’ll be on the floor or one leg will be out somewhere or there’ll just be different.

Shapes?

JZ
Shapes yeah.

That’s really interesting. So ok, coming back to you a bit more. So in terms of music, is it hip hop music that, is there any particular music that would make you want to dance more than other types?

I guess for me it’s just avoiding anything with the basic four-four beat like house music and electro and any of that stuff. I absolutely cannot move to it. I really struggle and when it is played and I try to think of interesting and innovative ways to dance to it. But give me a sort of African rhythm or a Cumbia or anything with drums.

So percussive?

Yeah, anything with really sort of different beats. It still could be four-four I guess but something interesting. Um yeah I think that works.

And why do you think that is for you?

JZ
I think it comes down to some sort of like I don’t know really. Actually I do know. Because I play drums. I think this is more of an interest in a beat rather than just..

LS
Doof, doof ,doof?

Yeah.

Cool. I mean I feel the same way in terms of things I like dancing to. You’re kind of like, because I've got three different sets of questions but you don’t actually fit into anyone of them so I’m kind of mixing questions over three categories. So did I explain to you a bit about the kind of dancing I’m looking into and why I’m doing these interviews?

No.

LS
I’m interested in looking at why people dance the way they do on the dance floor. It’s something I've always been interested in. I think with social dancing, it’s a very democratic space in some ways because even if you are trained,it doesn't necessarily help you if you’re dancing to a completely different style or music that you’re not used to. In fact I think sometimes training can hinder you, because you’re so trained that you don’t actually know how to let go and dance to the music. So in terms of that kind of dancing, do you see it as a style of dancing?

That social [dancing]?

LS
Yes.

JZ
That’s a good question.

Or do you see it as an extension of something we can just do? Like we can all walk, talk whatever. How would you kind of frame it? If you had to?

I would love it to be an extension of what we do but I think people are so reserved that they need to have something to copy to feel comfortable. Well not to feel comfortable but to, I guess guide them and place them in a level of something.

Like a structure?

Something to aim to?

LS
Oh like to aspire to?

Yeah aspire to so like I think things like Beyoncé film clips, I think that sort of, you see girls attempting that a lot because that’s been defined as..

LS
The cool way to move?

Yeah the cool way to move and a good definition of sexuality for women, and so I think people aspire to those sorts of things

So when you go out social dancing, what factors affect the way you move? Whether it be, is it the music, is it the people? It’s probably a bit of everything but is there anything that is key for you?

Oh it’s definitely the music. I mean I hate even being in a venue that plays really bad music.

LS
Right, so you’d rather just leave?

Yeah. There’s no point.

And so does the way other people are dancing on the dance floor affect you?

I guess if there’s someone who’s more confident than me, it’s definitely better for me because I don’t ever want to be the centre of attention. I don’t want to be the crazy person in the middle, I want to be next to the crazy person.

I had a question in my head but now it’s popped out… Doesn't matter, hopefully it’ll come back. Oh yes, even though when we go to a dance floor we don’t know how we are going to dance that particular night or day or whatever. For you, are there any moves that you tend to do all the time? Like some signature moves that you would do?

Yeah there’s gotta be something. I think, that even in the New York Lights, the friend I used to organise it used to say, ‘Oh that’s a Jo move,’ and I thought oh that is very interesting I never knew I had move. But apparently it was something do to with like flinging my arms around and a lot of jumping on the spot. But it was definitely something I noticed before I started doing No Lights, that I didn't know what to do with my arms but since No Lights, I definitely try and push that and do something with my arms. So if you don’t have a drink in your hand at one moment, it’s ok still to dance and know what to do with them.

True, true. So now this has become somewhat of a signature?

Yeah some sort of like, do something with your arms.

Ok cool. Because you've done so much NLNL, when you do, I don’t know if you do, but if still go out dancing, do you feel any different because of your NLNL [experience]?

Definitely. I feel differently even just in day to day. I haven’t been out dancing since I've moved to London. A few birthday parties maybe.

And how long have you been here again?

Two years. I've been to a few birthday parties where there’s been dancing but not to a club.

And why is that?

JZ
I guess you go out more when you’re single, that’s a big thing. And there’s just not been the type of music that I like played anywhere. And if they have, I’ll definitely have a dance. But yeah just doing No Lights, I feel more confident in day to day things. It’s so strange, that, as you were saying it should be second nature, like walking, it’s not and it’s so sad that we are human beings and we've somehow isolated dancing to be something that has to be learnt so well. It’s like practising a language. Sometimes you’re embarrassed to speak another language until you've perfected how you pronounce it, and I think that dancing can be the same.

Do you think then, do you think that dance has always been historically, somehow a part of human society?

Definitely.

So if you think back, what do you think the role of it is where you live now, in this context, in London 2014? It’s a very general question. What role do you think dance has for the people you know. Your peers and your generation?

I think a lot of people, from my experience, No Lights as an exercise thing as well which I don’t necessarily see it as but totally understand. And I guess social dancing still has to be about how good it feels to let go when you dance. I think after No Lights, that give you some sort of…

LS
High?

Yeah, every time and that has to be what it is about. That ecstatic feeling that you get.

LS
So the times you have been out dancing at your birthday parties or whatever, do you dance differently than you would at a No Lights event?

I try not to but I definitely push myself at No Lights, Much crazier and much freer but I’m definitely not shy to start dancing. Anywhere, anytime.

And is that because of No Lights or have you always been like that?

Definitely because of No Lights. I was always very, very shy.

So now you’re the one to get it all started?

Aaah yeah!

Alright, ok so in terms of the arts spectrum, say music, books, visual arts, the whole thing, where does dance rank on that spectrum for you as a priority?

It’s definitely always on my interests in my CV, you know how you list, oh I’m really into arts photography, music and dance…

Are there any forms that rank above that for you in terms of priority? Would it be like in the top three?

In general life situations?

LS
Yeah in terms of an art form that you connect to that’s important to you, in your life, in whatever way?

I think music definitely does, above it.

LS
Ok right.

I think dance would be second but it’s not like chicken or egg sort of thing. It’s more because, if I couldn't dance, I could still listen to music.

Sure and further on to that, do you think music and dance go hand in hand or do you think if there wasn’t such a thing as music, dance would still exist?

Yeah it would still exist. There’d have to be something that you could do it to. There’d have to be a rhythm. I think the rhythm is the most important.

LS
Errm , if you, I know you said you haven’t had any formalised training as such but if you had to learn a form, is there a particular form you would like to learn?

Yeah I was considering doing a, there was this West African drumming. This West Africa dance, more sort of the South American things as well but definitely something with hips. The music became more interesting and there’s something really natural about that than the structure of ballet or anything.

Yeah I agree. Even though you do No Lights regularly, would you like dance to feature more in your life? In any other way?

JZ
Yeah definitely.

LS
Do you go and watch shows or anything like that? Is that something you do?

You know it’s funny that you mention that because I saw something today about some dance shows and I thought I've ever only gone to the ballet or maybe two contemporary dance performances and I’d really like to see another. But I don’t ever think about it. I think about going to gigs and I think about comedy or I think about films, but yeah unless it’s sort of in your face...

Or someone maybe tells you about it or something. I’m going off script now cause I've asked you all the questions on my list. I’m curious also about Melbourne? You didn't do the No Lights No Lycra in Melbourne?

No, I've actually never been to the one in Melbourne.

Alright but have you heard much about it cause that was where it all started.

Yeah we had a lot of people who come from Melbourne. Especially in London and they always say, ‘Oh I used to go to the Brunswick one or the Fitzroy one and there’s always like 90 people and it’s crazy and I really like the space that you have here cause when you have 20 people that come in London, you get a lot of space to yourself,' But yeah, it’s sort of become this institution over there where a lot of friendships have formed through it.

Oh right? Wow.

And especially if you’re on the other side of the world like I have been and I’ve met like a Belgian girl who lived in Berlin and did No Lights in Berlin and I met her randomly through a friend sitting in a park and there’s that instant connection of, ‘Oh, we get each other.’ Like when you were in a teenager and you used to meet someone who likes the same band and that’s how friendships started. I think that this is definitely, something like that has begun where you know…

What kind of person do you think goes to No Lights No Lycra? I don’t mean to generalise that everyone is like that but...

There is a characteristic. There’s like someone…. They have to be open minded. They have to want to try new things but also be able to do them on their own. And there a lot of people who can’t do things by themselves, they need other people.

Sure. That’s a very good point.

I think someone who is excited, adventurous and willing to try something on their own. I mean other people come in groups or they go out for a drinks beforehand because they’re too nervous but um...

So the ones that you tend to see regularly coming, are they always people that just come on their own, the regulars that come to NLNL?

Yeah, definitely. There’s maybe….yeah everyone comes on their own.

Ok and how long has No Lights been running London for now?

JZ
Well before I started, this one I’m doing from August last year, another friend of mine who’s also from Melbourne, Sarah, started it when she moved over before I got here. I guess in total two years.

Ok and where do you see it? Do you think it’s just like going to bed into the...

There are so many things going on in London that it’s tough to stand out. But I think it’s got enough of a following around the world that people know it a lot and I think I really need to do more marketing because it is sort of blending into other things out there. Other things that are going on, but with the right sort of publicity it could get very big.

Oh yeah, I agree. Do you think the location of where you have No Lights No Lycra is important because at the moment it’s in Hackney in London and then in New York, I don’t know where the location is?

It was in Greenpoint in Brooklyn.

In Melbourne – where is it in Melbourne?

Fitzroy.

Fitzroy. So do you think the location is important?

Yeah I think so. I mean they’re all sort of quite similar types of people that are around that area. They’re all in creative fields. They’re sort of known as I guess hipster neighbourhoods a lot of the time. Yeah I guess Hackney is important in a way but I think they also have to be strategically placed near universities or easy access to public transport.

Or maybe places where the rent is cheapish?

JZ
Yeah and also places that have a cultural mix. Cause all those places really do. Like Greenpoint in New York certainly does and Brunswick and Fitzroy, maybe less now but. Hackney definitely has that cultural mix because it has to be open to everyone. It can’t just be 20-30 year olds in creative fields, even though they’re the people that tend to come more often, I think the appeal, it has to be open to everyone.

I’m just going to ask you just one last question. Sorry this is taking a bit longer than I thought but I keep thinking of questions to ask you!

Go ahead.

I read in the paper the other day about this new thing, well it’s not actually that new but it hasn't happened in London just yet, I think it’s in Manchester. It’s called Lunchbeats. Have you heard of it?

JZ
Possibly. I think someone in Sweden did something like that a few years ago.

LS
Yeah it started in Sweden, similar to No Lights. I think it’s gone international now and I couldn't help but think there are similarities to the No Lights experience. Similarities being that it’s a one hour event, um but this one, do you know what it is?

It’s dancing at lunchtime.

Yeah it’s in your office. The company come and hold it in your office space and then they encourage the workers to and dance during their lunchtime as opposed to sit at their desks and whatever. I think you pay a fee and you get your lunch and you get a free drink. In New York it’s really taken off. There’s not been one in London just yet, I think they have them in Manchester and I just couldn't help but think gosh, these are things that have just taken off internationally. I remember reading in the article, cause they were interviewing New Yorkers as to why they were going to these things, why do you like them? And a lot of them were saying that it’s a chance for people who are a bit older and maybe who are now into the whole work, raising children whatever thing, to have a bit of that dance club thing or social dance club thing that they might not otherwise have cause they don’t go out anymore. And just for the fitness aspect and the whole thing, I couldn't help think that maybe this is a shift in trend worldwide in terms of how people are perceiving dance. For instance, this Saturday I’m going to this event called I Haven’t Stopped Dancing Yet. Have you heard of that?

Is that the one that’s in the...

LS
I think it changes venue each time but it was set up by someone I think, who went to a club. I think she was in her 40s when she started it up and she really loves dancing but wasn't into the club scene. Didn't want to pay stupid prices to get in to hang out with 20 year olds, to music that she hates.

JZ
Yeah and have a drink spilt over you.

LS
Yeah so she thought, ‘I’m just going to start my own club night for people of my generation who just want to go somewhere and dance to like retro music,’ and um, yeah, and inexpensively. So I don’t know. I think there’s all these little sub things coming up and maybe it’s just because I’m looking into it right now but people are looking for places where they can dance. Yeah maybe it’s a shift in trend. I don’t know.

Yeah I agree, especially in this city cause so much has changed in so many ways it’s becoming more like New York in terms of like the food and now they want to start doing the tube 24 hours and just little things that keep popping up. Maybe Brits are becoming more open minded.

Do you think, what was I going to say? Do you think things like Strictly Come Dancing and all those shows that are quite popular now, do you think it has an impact in terms….

It must. Every time the Australian Open is on, how many kids start doing tennis afterwards? It’s the same sort of thing. Tennis clubs are booked like crazy.

That’s true.

JZ
And I think that definitely has an impact on things and when you see these actors or whoever they get on like on Strictly Come Dancing or Dancing with the Stars or whatever and you realise that they’re normal people and they can do these things.

They just have to like learn it.

Yeah, I think that must inspire things.

Well I've come to the end of my questions. Do you have any questions or anything else you’d like to say about anything?

The one point, taking back to the African style and dancing. There’s this interview that I read. It’s actually about depression. About treating depression how the eastern and the western world deal with it and I am so bad with remembering exact details.

That’s alright. Me too.

JZ
Basically there was this guy who went to Africa. This psychologist who was trying to implement the western ways of dealing with depression in Africa.

Right and this was with local people?

Yeah and there was a guy who was standing up for local people and he was maybe a doctor or a psychologist or someone who dealt in whatever ways they were doing it who said, 'We just don’t understand your ways of dealing with depression. You put people into a dark room with one single person who then makes them talk about all the sad things in their life and then you expect them to walk out happy. How does that work?' And he said, 'that’s good that you brought that up. How do you guys deal with it?' and he’s like, 'We surround them with the community, we play really loud music and we dance like crazy.' And it just makes so much sense and it was put so simply.

Well when you say it like that, it’s crystal clear isn’t it?

And the daylight, where there’s natural sunlight, natural elements of outside.

LS
I agree. Like you say, dancing gives you a natural high and it’s not like a natural high that might get from exercise, it’s a different thing because dancing is also tapped into so many different other aspects of your psyche. It’s expressive, it’s spiritual; it can be spiritual for people. But it’s funny that you say that because friends of mine know that I’m doing this dissertation, people send me bits and pieces and someone sent me this word definition on Facebook. I think it’s tarantism? And apparently it’s an actual word and the definition of it is to cure melancholy by dancing.

Wow!

And another friend of mine said he’d actually wrote his paper on that and I said I can read it so maybe I can pass it onto you?

Yeah, that’d be great.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Everyday Dance Fieldwork Diary

Friday, 16 May 2014

Interview with Joanna Zawadzka (May 14, 2014)

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