Everyday Dance Fieldwork Diary: May 2014

Saturday, 31 May 2014

Interview with 'Diana' (May 29, 2014)

Interview with 'Diana'
Dance Industry Professional

Thursday May 29, 2014

9.45 am - 10.20pm

Phone interview

Note:

The person whom I interviewed has chosen to remain anonymous for the purposes of my research so I will be using the pseudonym of 'Diana.' The reason I sought Diana out for an interview is because she is a dance professional with fifty plus years’ experience in the ballet world. Currently she is the Artistic Director for an international dance organisation. I was interested to speak to someone whose career has largely been dedicated to one dance form and get her views on everyday social dancing.

For the purposes of this interview, I adhered roughly to the list of questions I had set out for interviews with dance professionals*. However by this time in my fieldwork, I was feeling much more confident about the interview process and had realised the value of allowing the interview to take its own course based upon the responses of the interviewee. Therefore whilst I did ask set questions, I did not do so in a strict fashion.

The interview was conducted through a phone call which I recorded. I have not included the audio version online as Diana inadvertently revealed her identity during our discussion. I have also omitted this section of the interview from the below transcript.

Transcript:

Hello.

Hello, good morning!

Good morning. I’m taping you right now just so you know.

Right, ok.

Ok, so I know you want to be anonymous so I’ll do my best to remember. Thanks for doing this by the way.

It’s a pleasure.

And if there’s anything you’d rather not answer, just say so.

Yep sure.

Right so shall we just get started?

Yes that’s fine.

Ok, so you’re based in London?

Yes.

LS
And can you just tell me what you would define as your profession?

I’m [a] Artistic Director.

Can you tell me a little bit about what dance forms you have trained in and teach?

D
Yes well I started learning Greek dancing when I was a child.

Really?

Yes and that was on the curriculum in my school.

Ok, how old were you when you started that?

I was nine, nine and a half when I started something like that and I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed the freedom of movement, I enjoyed the music and the teacher at the time, well the teacher that was teaching the classes was also a ballet teacher and she suggested to my mother that I take ballet lesson because she thought that I had a talent for movement. And that’s how I got into ballet. I didn't even know what it was when I first started.

And so how old were you when you started ballet?

D
I was about ten. Quite late actually. Late starter.

LS
And how did you find it when you first started?

Loved it. The teacher suggested that I took private classes to start with because I was a bit of a late starter so she gave me some lessons and then I just took to it straight away and realised that that was what I really wanted to do. I just wanted to dance.

And did you do any other forms of dance alongside the ballet while you were training as a child?

D
No. Purely ballet, I think mainly because there wasn't that sort of opportunity. The ballet school that I went to, the dance school, privately run dance school, really only dealt with ballet and the syllabus for examinations so I really didn't have access to anything else. The only other dance form that I did do was at the grammar school I went to which was ballroom dancing.

Oh ok. How did you find that?

Oh I really enjoyed that. I really, really enjoyed that and I think more so because my parents also loved ballroom dancing so on a Saturday night they would often go to dances and their favourite dance was the tango so I think I picked up a little bit from them and that side of it for me. I enjoyed it because we used to dance, we were partnered with the partner boys school, because we used to dance with blokes as well. It was a Thursday evening. Every Thursday during term time and I really enjoyed that as well. I don’t know whether it was partly to see the boys but it was social dancing really, and it was for me, something to look forward to.

So in terms of your formative years, so you did the Greek dancing as a child and then you did ballet training. And alongside that you were doing some ballroom social dancing as well…

I did also do a little bit of national dance at one point.

What’s national dance?

D
Yes national dance. That was probably when was about, I think I was, actually when I started ballet. I only did it for a little while. I must have been about ten then. It’s long.

So in terms of all those forms you just described, do you remember back at the time when you were doing them, did you feel differently when you were doing each form or did you just find that each one, you just enjoyed because it was moving your body and rhythmic and so forth? Or did you feel that you occupied different parts of your personality or whatever in terms of the different forms?

D
I think it gave me an opportunity to express in a different way because ballroom dancing obviously was with a partner and the ballet was on my own so I had to move in a different way. I had to consider my partner although in ballet I had to consider the other people around me in the room if your dancing in a group so you don’t go crashing into someone. But the actual contact was different so therefore the expression was different because in ballroom dancing I was more focused on presenting to my partner, whereas in the ballet, I was presenting to my imaginary audience or my teacher or even the pianist actually. You know, the people around me so I suppose it was a broader sense of performing in ballet.

And how long did you, because I’m assuming and I may be wrong, that ballet went on to become your primary dance style? Is that correct?

Yes.

So how long did you train in ballet for?

Well I really took it seriously, well from the time I started actually so from ten to fifteen. I left school at fifteen. I happened to be, I was shifted up a level at school when I was nine because they thought I was intelligent so I hopped a year. It wouldn’t happen these days because you can’t leave until you’re sixteen but it did in those days so I was always the youngest in my class. So I actually left school at fifteen. Cause I went to the Royal Ballet School which was full time.

And when did that training go on until?

For three years. I was eighteen when I graduated into the company.

LS
And then when did you start teaching? When did teaching become your vocation?

I danced professionally for just over three years which is a relatively short period of time. I decided that I wanted to teach so I stepped off the stage and straight into teaching.

And how long have you been teaching for then?

Ummm. Errrr.

Since then.

Since then. Oh gosh.

A long time.

Yes. Forty, well over forty years.

LS
Ok. Apart from dance, are you, do you have experience or training in any other art forms? Such as painting or music or anything else?

No. I sung in the school choir. That was fun too. The interesting thing is that I didn’t learn to play an instrument. Money was a little bit tight at home at the time. There was three of us and my parents worked very hard to give us every opportunity, but really one had to have a choice between dance and anything else.

Had you had the opportunity to be trained in another art form or had training now in another art form, is there a particular one that stands out that you would be interested in learning?

D
I think I would pursue piano.

Piano, ok. And why’s that?

I suppose because I can just about read a score. I can certainly find my way through a ballet score by reading the top line or underneath or an arpeggio or something like that. Music is a very big part of what I do and what I love actually. So I think to be able to sit down and play the piano would be wonderful. And the other thing that I love doing is singing and I think to purse that as well. I have a dream of standing at the Royal Opera House stage and singing an aria would be quite something.

Well you never know!

D
You never know.

Just moving back to dance. For you given your experience working in dance and with dancers, what are the key characteristics that define a dancer for you both to watch and also to be? Because you've danced professionally yourself and you've also trained and worked with a lot of dancers. So what’s the difference in terms of how you define a dancer?

D
What do I think are the most important things?

Yeah so what, like if you were to call someone a dancer, to watch them or train them, what would be some of the three defining characteristics that you've found in common in all the dancers that you've worked with. If you have found anything in common?

Well I think if someone really loves what they’re doing and they’re dedicated, that goes a long way. You don’t need to be, and this is broadly across everyone who wants to dance, not just professional dancers because there are young people who never go into the profession but who really love to express through movement. And if they’re keen to do that, then that to me is the most important thing because then you can work together to bring out the best for them and in teaching. It’s not for me, it’s for them because they’re the ones that going to benefit from it so that’s the most important thing.

So do you think that’s the same for anyone dancing do you think? That that is the primary, or for yourself when you were a dancer, that love and the desire….

Yes because I think that gives you the focus and the determination and also the discipline to be able to progress and do what you want to do. If you don’t have that, then you’re not going to make it basically. You’re not going to enjoy it. And uh if you go into the profession, it is more than the job of work as there so much involved there, and it’s a short lived career if you’re going into the profession, you might as well go fully into it order to make the most of it because it doesn't last forever.

I don’t know if I actually did speak to you about the kind of dancing that I’m looking at for this dissertation. Did I?

No, not really.

Ok so the kind of dancing I’m looking at for this dissertation is spontaneous, untrained social dance which is a very long winded way of saying the way people dance on the dance floor at social events like weddings, parties. The dance that basically anyone can do if they wish, well most people anyway. I’m just curious to what makes people dance the way they do at these events because everyone has their own style of dancing at certain events and it may change over time. So that’s what I’m looking at. So I’m just going to ask you a few questions about your own kind of experience of dancing at these things.

Right.

So firstly, do you dance at social events when they come up?

Yes.

And how would you describe the way you dance at these events? Do you have a particular style? Like do you have moves that you do regardless? Or do you kind of just go with the flow?

I go with the flow. I go with the music. Very much with the music. So I’ll be inspired by that. I might be inspired by the people around me as well. So if I’m dancing with people I know very well, like if it’s a wedding for example, I mean at my nieces wedding all the family were there and all of her friends obviously. I was doing things that I’d never done before basically, because I was led on by youngsters. Dances that I hadn't seen and you know, modern things that I don’t often get the opportunity to join in with. So I was going with the flow really and letting one’s hair down and just going for it. Because everybody was enjoying it and I think that one’s inspired by the atmosphere of people around you. So if everybody’s going, ‘Hey let’s just get on, let’s just do it,’ they lose their inhibitions. Which is a lot to do with it in my view, and they let themselves have a good time. You can do anything you like really. So I might go for a, if there’s a samba or a tango or something like that, something a bit more specific, then I’ll try and get into what I think is that style, in my own way because I don’t necessarily have a partner. If there’s a partner there, we might go into it together and feel that movement and music and put your movement to it. Equally if it’s a pop song, off I go like a sixteen year old. Depends on the music really and the people around me.

Sure. Speaking of music, what kinds of music makes you want to dance? Do you have songs that always make you want to dance or a certain style of music? Favourites?

No. I think it’s a wide variety for me actually. I don’t think I could say that particularly style of music inspired me more than others. Obviously the ballet music that I know brings back memories of the actual steps and repertoire and occasions will be an inspiration for me to get up and fiddle around and so on. Or I even just float my arms around if I’m feeling in that sort of mood. But then party music, there are things from my era, from being a teenager that might inspire me. The twist was going on when I was young, so if there is Twist and Shout then I’ll get going. I love the cha-cha and that sort of stuff. Tango. It’s really quite a broad range but it depends what type of situation I’m in.

Some people that I've spoken to have said that even though when you get on the dance floor, you don’t really know what’s going to happen at that particular event, as you say, it does depend a lot on the mood and the music and how you’re feeling. But some people have mentioned that usually there are some signatures moves they might kind of bring out during the evening if they are dancing. For someone it might be a characteristic hip move or waving their arms around or whatever. Do you have anything like that for yourself that tends to come out?

Probably if I was doing something poppy.

OK. What would it be?

D
Umm. Difficult to describe I think. It might be difficult for somebody else to describe as well. I suppose it’s just an inner movement that’s in my body, a sort of snaky like thing with the arms in the air.

OK. And do you find your formal dance training, does it help you at these social dance events? Does it have any impact at all?

Yeah I think it does. And also from the performance aspect because I’m not inhibited. I just let it go. If people want to go, ‘Oh dear,’ I don’t really mind because if I’m going for it perhaps other people will who might have felt inhibited and I reckon everybody should have a good time and let their hair down. Basically I don’t worry about what people think. I’m not overly concerned because I know I wouldn't go so far to embarrass the people around me. I think that’s where the discipline comes in. You know you can move but you wouldn't do something that was outrageous because that would upset people so I wouldn't go that far.

What would you consider outrageous?

I suppose something that is quite erotic perhaps. Something a bit like that. Something too suggestive.

Um ok. In terms of this kind of dancing that I’m talking about, do you consider it a proper dance style, for you personally?

Well it depends exactly what it is.

I mean base level social dance that anyone can do whether they've had any kind of training. Just moving to music in a social environment basically.

It’s difficult to categorise it as a style because then you have to define what style is. Is it break dancing, is it line dancing, is it popping locking or whatever and sometimes it’s very difficult to define style. Is it contemporary or modern? What’s the difference? Is it jazz? Is it hip hop? Is it street and what’s the difference between street and hip hop? So to define something is very hard. To say yeah, that’s what it is. To say social dancing is a genre, I don’t think you could really say that. I don’t think I could define it. If I looked around at a wedding and was asked to define what people were doing, they would be doing a multitude of different styles.

You would describe it more of a genre than a style?

I’m still not clear what you mean. Is it like a wedding party?

I’m not really sure myself how I would define this kind of area but the commonality of it, at the moment, that I kind of found is that most people can participate in and do regardless.

Regardless of whether they’re trained or not and that’s great. If you go to other countries and if you’re in Greece and all of a sudden in a restaurant people will start standing up and just moving very, very gently. They’re moving. They’re dancing. It’s their own way of doing it. What you would call that I don’t really know. And then if you go somewhere else there may be people doing a very specific style which could be categorised as a genre and then at a wedding party or a party or whatever if you put on a piece of music, what was that one, what was the thing that was so popular about two years ago?

I don’t know.

It was a pop song that everybody completely mad about. I think the gentleman was Thai. Was he Thai? I can’t remember.

Oh I know who you’re talking about. Yes, yes I know. I've got him in my head but I can’t remember his name

And everyone was doing ‘the’ dance

Gangam. Gangam style.

Gangam. That’s right. So everyone was doing that. Now, the recent wedding I went to, that came on and everybody did that same dance because they knew it. No matter whether they had ever done that dance before, everyone joined in cause they felt they could. So that was an opportunity but that was led by that particular song.

Yes. And that music video.

And that video. And you know, we talk about the Michael Jackson walk and all that. If a Michael Jackson song come one, you see people trying to do that walk because that’s something they associate with that piece of music. So therefore I do think it’s very much music led. Some maybe more classical piece comes on, perhaps people know, or maybe it’s a form, piece of form music where there are words and people start to,’Aaaah,’ sing the words.

They try dancing out the lyrics.

Yeah they try sing out the lyrics without singing. Their arms are going and them something like [sings] ‘YMCA,’ everybody, as you know, whether they've ever danced or not, will do the actions.

Yeah that’s true.

Because they've seen it and they just join in because everybody’s doing it.

That is something I am looking within this. The impact of music videos on my generation anyway. Because I did grow up in a generation that was heavily influenced by music videos as part of pop culture and that affected, I think, what happened on the dance floor when I was growing up. But it is very true. It really does impact I think, people’s movement catalogue, of what they reference.

When I was a teenager, actually when I was at the Royal Ballet School, just to say, when I was a teenager I would go sometimes on a Saturday night with my friends to Streatham because they had a ballroom there.

The Rivoli?

Yes and a big band and we used to go on a Saturday night and dance and sometimes you got a partner and so you partnered up and sometimes you didn’t but that was fantastic because that was big band music, live. So that was very much social dancing.

And how did you find that because obviously you were doing your formal training by then with the ballet. How did that compare to …

Well it was fun to do, it was a Saturday night out, it was with my mates and there were boys around. You know, social.

In terms of the arts spectrum, going back to more formal questions, where does dance rate for you in comparison to music, visual arts, film, etc.

I think it’s way up the top personally. Because anyone can do. And actually people dance more that they realise. If you watch children in the playground, they’re dancing all the time.

I think it’s just natural for them I think.

Totally. It is for everybody really. Not everybody will sing, they might hum but not sing, but a lot of people dance without realising it.

Having said that, this is quite a broad question, where do you think dance fits within our society at this current time? Do you believe it’s something that’s innate in all people? Where do you think it fits? What is its function?

I think it’s pretty high really. If you look at all these talent programs that go on. There are masses and masses of young people, not even young people actually, older people too, dancing. Trying to make their mark dancing. And if you think about the dance clubs, ballroom dancing for more mature people. There are many, many clubs around for that. Social is something they want to do because they meet other people when they go there and young people go to clubs, I understand, and dance to the early hours. Many, many, many people are dancing and probably far more than we know. The majority probably not in a formal way but socially I think it’s huge. Yes very high on a lot of people’s agenda. I’ll go clubbing, yes I’ll go to a club or I’m going to go ballroom dancing. I’m going to go to a tea dance. That’s another very popular thing, ballroom dancing.

Ok I've got one last question for you and also if there is anything else you want to raise afterwards. I’m just curious, I know you've worked with a lot of dancers. Have you ever been out dancing socially with the dancers you've worked with?

Have I been out dancing… yes I have.

And has it ever surprised you the people that, in the studio, when you've seen them in a social dance sense, have you ever been surprised by the difference in their dancing socially because obviously it’s a different dance style. Have you ever been thinking, ‘Oh that person can really bust a move,’ or been like, ‘That person doesn't seem very comfortable dancing socially.’ What’s been your experience?

Very much depends on the individual. Some professional dancers prefer not to necessarily to, release, and some love it.

And do you think that’s what it comes down to. That key thing of whether they are just happy to let go on the social dance floor as opposed to maybe not?

Yes I think it is actually. Whether they feel comfortable doing that and want to do it basically.

And do you think that’s a learned thing or do you think it’s just something within someone’s personality?

Probably just like people who say, ‘No, I’m not going to dance.’ You go to a wedding party and there are people who just never dance. They don’t like dancing or don’t want to dance or don’t want to be up there. Don’t want to be seen to move and they possibly feel they don’t move very well. It’s that sort of, ‘Oooh, what will everybody think of me if I shuffle around on the dance floor?’ For me it doesn't matter. You can shuffle, you can hop, you can do anything you like but the important thing is to get up there, if you feel like it. There again I don’t think anybody should be forced into doing anything they don’t want to.

Ok, well that’s the last of my questions. Do you have anything you would like to raise or any questions for me?

No I don’t think so. See how that comes out

* Questionnaire: Dance Industry

Name

Age

Location

Profession

What dance forms are you trained and/or teach? What is the duration of training and/or teaching?

Apart from the above dance, are you trained in any other art forms?

What are the key characteristics that for you, define a dancer?

If you could be proficient in another art form, what would you choose and why?

Do you dance at social dance events such as weddings, parties, clubs and so forth? Why? Why not?

If so, how would you describe the style in which you dance at these events? Are there certain moves that you always execute at these kind of dance events? What are they?

What kind of music makes you want to dance? Why?

Is your dance training useful or not useful for the way you dance at these events ?

What role do you think dance plays now in our society, if any?

Do you consider the type of dancing that happens at these events to be a proper dance style? Why? Why not?

What other factors affect the way you dance at these events?

In what dance form do you feel you are best able to express yourself?

Do you have any questions?

Saturday, 24 May 2014

Everyday Dance Questionnaire - Eva Au Zveglic

In addition to conducting audio interviews, I asked a few of my friends to fill in written questionnaires about everyday dance. Below is one completed sample:

Name: Eva Au Zveglic

Age: 36 years

Location: London

Profession: Physiotherapist

Are you trained in any style of dance? If so, what was the period of training, e.g. 12 years in jazz, one off workshop in salsa.

I wouldn’t define myself as trained but I have had lessons (usually 12 week courses) in ballroom, salsa and belly-dancing. I also did some Irish dancing, tap and modern jazz for a short while as a 7 year old.

Are you involved any kind of dance activity in your daily life? e.g. Zumba classes, clubbing, work in the dance industry, watch tv shows on dance.

I love the show 'Got to Dance”'and go and see ballet or modern dance now and then. I also did mother and baby Zumba for fitness after having my daughter.

In the entire arts spectrum which includes music, visual art, literature, where does dance rank for you? Please explain why this is the case?

It’s difficult to rank it but dance is definitely one of my top five. Dance relates so closely with music and music is a big part of my life. Some forms of dance are so beautiful to watch, and I feel happy when I’m social dancing. Dance is also a part of many cultural customs.

Do you agree that dance has always been a part of human society? Why? Why not? If yes, what role do you think dance has played historically?

Yes. Many indigenous tribes still use dance as an important part of customs and rituals.
Hence I feel that it is one of the ways people enjoy, socialise and bond within communities.

What role do you think dance plays now in our society, if any?

It’s a way that people find enjoyment in their lives. People watch or perform dance to escape the mundane/stressful situations in modern western society.

If you had to become active in any type of dance, what type would you choose and why?

Salsa. I like the relaxed style, freedom of movement, the music and letting someone else take the lead for once.

Do you think that they type of dancing I am researching, the type of dancing that anyone can do and which is usually done at social events, is actually a style of dancing? Why? Why not?

No. I think music can dictate the type/style of social dancing. E.g house vs RnB.

When you have participated in the above dancing, what affects the way you move?

The rhythm and what people do around me too.

Would you like to dance more in your daily life? Why? Why not?

Yes as I feel enjoyment when I dance and it makes me happy. I would also like to do some classes with my husband in the future as a way of us bonding.

Thank you very much for your time

Eva and I out dancing at Hot Dub Time Machine at the Underbelly Festival

Wednesday, 21 May 2014

Interview with Gideon Obarzanek (May 20, 2014)

When I first started thinking about researching everyday dance for this dissertation, I remembered a dance show by Chunky Move that premiered in Melbourne in 2004. The show was called I Want to Dance Better at Parties. I was living in Melbourne at that time and attending public dance classes at Chunky Moves studios so I followed the orbit of what this company did. I remember reading press interviews with Gideon Obarzanek, Chunky Moves founder and then Artistic Director about his ideas for this show and how it emerged. For some stupid reason I didn't go to see the show which I regret.

Gideon Obarzanek
Courtesy of http://www.behindballet.com/

I regret it for even ten years later, I still am affected by the fact that this was the first dance show on my radar to draw upon the reality of 'everyman' (I use 'man' as the show was based upon the experiences of men) and his relationship with dance. It resonated with me at the time, as it still does now, for I have always been frustrated with the perceived and also real elitism within the dance sector. I liked the fact that this work seemed to emerge from how dance is actually experienced by the average person rather than the average person being told how they should experience dance.

Now working as a freelancer, Gideon has just premiered a new work called 'L'Chaim,' with the Sydney Dance Company as part of their Interplay dance triptych. In his own words, Gideon explains the work:

I still have a lot of questions about dance, and contemporary dance specifically. How do I relate to it? How do other people relate to it? So I devised a character who would literally ask the dancers these questions while they are trying to perform. This creates a challenge, or a difficulty, for the dancers in terms of achieving what they’re doing because they’re constantly trying to answer this person, who’s attempting to analyse what they’re doing on stage and what makes them interested in what they’re doing, and so forth. That struggle is what interests me, and that’s what happens in this piece. Then the dancers convince this person to come and join them on stage, which is when the work really takes off.
-Taken from an interview with Cult Magazine

The idea for L'Chaim is intriguing and brings dance back to the realm of the every person. Ultimately this curiosity to explore how dance and the community interact is why Gideon Obarzanek's name was on the top of my list of potential research interviewees.

Gideon describing his process for creating L'Chaim!
(taken from the Sydney Dance Company website)

Fortunately for me, Gideon kindly agreed to be interviewed by me as to his thoughts on everyday, spontaneous social dancing as well as his process for some of his past and present works.

Interview with Gideon Obarzanek
Dance Industry Professional

Tuesday May 20 - Wednesday May 21, 2014

11.30pm - 12.10am

Skype Interview

Questions for Gideon Obarzanek

Profession/Location
Primary dance training
When you were training in dance, would you also go out and dance socially? If so, what were the differences you felt when you danced in a class as opposed to an event?
Apart from the above dance, are you trained in any other art forms?
If you could be proficient in another art form, what would you choose and why?
What are the key characteristics that for you, define a dancer?
Do you dance at social dance events such as weddings, parties, clubs and so forth? Why? Why not?
If so, how would you describe the style in which you dance at these events? Are there certain moves that you always execute at these kind of dance events? What are they?
What kind of music makes you want to dance? Why?
Is your dance training useful or not useful for the way you dance at these events ?
Do you consider the type of dancing that happens at these events to be a proper dance style? Why? Why not?
What other factors affect the way you dance at these events?
In what dance form do you feel you are best able to express yourself?
What role do you think dance plays now in your society, if any?
In your research for your pieces such as I Want to Dance Better at Parties, Dance Like Your Old Man – pieces that draw more on the every person’s experience of dancing – did you find any commonalities in terms of how dance is perceived by people who don’t identify themselves as dancers? And also what motivated and inhibited them to dance socially?
Do you or have you been out dancing socially with dancers that you have worked with? If so, what are the differences you observe in terms of their dancing in a social, freestyle space as opposed to in a studio? Are you ever surprised by how a dancer dances socially? Why?
Do you have any questions or anything further to add?

Audio Interview with Gideon Obarzanek

Transcript of Interview with Gideon Obarzanek

Note:

Originally from Melbourne, Australia, Gideon Obarzanek trained at the Australian Ballet School before going on to dance professionally for the Queensland Ballet and Sydney Dance Company. In 1995 he founded the contemporary dance company, Chunky Move, of which he was the Artistic Director until 2012. Now working as a freelancer, his latest work, L'Chaim is part of the Sydney Dance Company's Interplay triptych, also featuring works by choreographers, Rafael Bonachela and Jacopo Godani.

Although I had prepared a set of questions to ask Gideon, I decided that I would also try and let the interview take its own course. Being a dance professional, I was sure that he would raise interesting points which I had not considered . Also I wanted the interview to be somewhat informal rather than a set Q & A.

The first few minutes of our interview failed to record. This part of the conversation was Gideon asking me if I was Australian as he had anticipated a British accent on the phone. The recorded dialogue picks up when I answer him:

LS:

I’m Australian that’s why.

GB:

I thought you were from England, being in England I just assumed you were…

LS:

No I’m an expat. I’m actually originally from Perth.

GB:

Right.

LS:

So if there’s anything I ask you that you prefer not to answer, just stay so. Just say pass or whatever.

GB:

Ok sure.

LS:

So I’m just going to ask you a few questions just about your own kind of experiences of social dance and then also bring in a bit about some of your shows a bit later on if that’s ok?

GB:

Yeah, for sure.

LS:

Ok, cool. Firstly what would you describe your profession as being?

GB:

Um, it’s changed a bit. Traditionally when I leave Australia I do an exit passport thing and I always put choreographer down. Yeah I would say choreographer.

LS:

And you’re based in Melbourne? Sydney?

GB:

Melbourne.

LS:

So can you tell me a little bit of what your dance training was when you were growing up?

GB:

Yep. I started doing dance lessons after school when I was around 15, 16 in high school. I went to the Australian Ballet School after I’d graduated from high school. I deferred university and went to the Australian Ballet School and then I went to Queensland Ballet and then Sydney Dance Company.

LS:

So was it mainly ballet training that you did when you were training as a teenager?

GB:

Yeah, actually it was jazz ballet when I started.

LS:

Oh really?

GB:

It wasn’t retro then, it was the real thing.

LS:

And what made you kind of go more towards the classical side then?

GB:

It was my dance teacher. She said to me, if you’re serious about becoming a dancer, and I think I was becoming serious about it; she said I should do ballet as well. Not instead of. And I started doing it. It was very challenging, I found it very difficult.

LS:

How old were you when started doing the classical ballet training?

GB:

I would have been about 16. I had a good teacher and I found it quite challenging and I found it interesting. Look I got into the Australian Ballet School. I don’t think I really understood what that school was completely and what that would mean in regards to studying such a purist type of dancing. I just sort of naively accepted it and started doing it so yeah, I had a very traditional ballet training I’d say.

LS:

And when did you start doing contemporary dance then?

GB:

Well, there was some Graham classes at the ballet school which wasn’t, well I wouldn’t call it contemporary dance but the teacher was certainly very progressive and she encouraged the students to make their own works at lunchtime. There was nothing in the course that allowed you time to make your own work so I did it after school and during lunchtime. So I started making my own work quite early as a choreographer. When I joined Queensland Ballet, there were some more contemporary choreographers who were guests and certainly with Sydney Dance later. And as an independent I tended to gravitate to more contemporary dance, contemporary ideas very quickly.

LS:

OK. So when you were training in dance, in jazz ballet and ballet and Graham, did you also go out dancing socially as a teenager?

GB:

I did yeah. That’s what made me interested in studying dance. I first started going out socially and I started dancing a lot. When I was about 15, I started going out. 15, 16 and dancing and that’s what got me interested in actually going and doing dance classes.

LS:

Oh ok. So that was the impetus was it?

GB:

Yeah.

LS:

When you used to go out dancing, what kinds of places would you go and what kind of dancing was it that you did there?

GB:

Well because I was under age, it was private parties but also just sneaking into clubs just under age as well

LS:

And can you remember particular music that you would dance to at that time or what were the trends going on then in the clubs that you would go to?

GB:

I’m just trying to remember when that was?

LS:

Was this in Melbourne?

GB:

Yeah Melbourne sort of early 80s so it was kind of like, end of disco and going into more house type music.

LS:

And so, did you continue going out dancing when you were doing your training? You know, when you were doing your dance training?

GB:

Yeah.

And did you find that your training affected the way you would dance at these social events?

Yeah I think it did for a while. I was more, I became very conscious of my dancing whereas I think prior to training I really wasn’t paying attention to the details of what I was doing.

So if you could give me a visual description of before and after, of how you might have danced at these kinds of events, before and after training that is, how would you describe yourself?

I would say there was very little, prior to training, there was very little awareness of what I might look like while dancing. It was something that was felt internally and sort worked its way out. I would say once I commenced, or once I was in training for quite a while, there was also a very strong external sense of what I was doing. I guess maybe because particularly in ballet training you use mirrors a lot in the studio so you have this sense of seeing yourself. In fact you’re encouraged to look at yourself in the mirror to see what you are actually doing so you develop a sense of what you actually physically look like when you’re dancing. I think prior to that I don’t think I would have ever looked into a mirror while dancing. Maybe when I was brushing my teeth! There was no real, there was no aesthetic sense of what that was.

Right. And did your relationship with music change as well in terms of how you danced to music? Before and after training?

Probably. It’s hard to say now. But I would say that I would have varied my dancing probably more while and after training, rather than doing something maybe repetitively over and over.

Ok. I completely went off script then so now I’m going to go back to the questions I meant to ask you.

I should preface that I did grow up doing Israeli folk dancing as a child.

Oh really?

Because of my cultural background but I never really thought of it was something particularly relevant to my professional, my dance career and I think more recently, I’ve kind of taken that more into account. So there’s certainly social dancing, on a cultural kind of level when I was younger for a period of time.

Was that something you would do quite regularly in a social environment with your family or community or whatever?

Yeah you know once a week or once a month.

So dancing was part of your childhood growing up even before you went out to clubs and started training or whatever?

Yeah there was a big gap I would say in between, before I went to clubs and after folk dancing. It wasn’t like a transitional…I would have stopped doing that probably around 11 or 12 and I didn’t go out until I was about 15 ,16. So yeah, there was a gap in between.

So you’ve just actually, just even from our short conversation, you’ve described a lot of dance forms that you’ve kind of trained and danced in. Of all the dance forms that you’ve experienced, is there one that you feel the most comfortable in terms of expressing yourself in? Even social dancing.

Well I would say now, it’s hard to say, it’s very hard to… I haven’t done professional on stage performance dance for quite a while, but I would say social dancing like going out and probably folk dancing if I think back to it.

Really? Ok. That’s interesting.

It’s something I really enjoyed doing.

Cool. Alright. Just out of curiosity, I wasn’t going to ask you this but does that folk dancing, does that feed into, cause I know you just premiered a new work, L’Chaim?

Yeah. It totally feeds into that and I’m talking about it partly because I’ve been thinking a lot about it the last couple of years I guess and I kind of brought it into my work now, and particularly with L’Chaim, it’s integral to that piece. But I haven’t really accessed it, I don’t think in earlier works….

Can I just ask you another question about that that’s just come into my head? Cause I read a little bit about the work and I know that it’s about the questions an audience may ask when watching the show and like how it kind of feeds into the dancers onstage and so forth. I’m just wondering the questions that the audience asks, are they actually questions that maybe, that you had yourself when you were growing up doing the dance, about the dance?

Absolutely. I’m always very interested in the audience’s sort of position or perspective of experience in watching dance performance and a lot of my works in various ways take that into account. I think with this one, I worked with an actor and writer, David Wood who is very experience in contemporary experimental theatre and so forth but doesn’t have a lot of background in dance and after I did quite a big work with the Australian Ballet a few years ago about Swan Lake, I was very curious to work with a contemporary dance and I guess the theme was about contemporary dance itself. So during the rehearsal period when we were creating some dance, he would ask all these somewhat naive questions about what they were doing and what does it mean and very often things I think many people may ask while watching dance, who are not necessarily a dance audience or as much. They were not stupid questions. I think they were intelligent questions forcing the dancers to discuss their answers whilst training. I would say I shared some of those questions with David but not all of them. Some of them were mine but most of them were his.

Well I really hope I get to see it at some point because it sounds really interesting.

Yeah, it went really well. But they have performed it in Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne and they haven’t discussed it with me about doing it anywhere else so I don’t know if they will. I hope they do.

Fingers crossed. Um ok, apart from dance, are you trained in any other art form?

No, I’m not trained in anything…

So you put all your eggs into one basket.

Well, I didn’t mean to. It was just one thing after another. It wasn’t really a planned career path. To be honest, when I deferred university, I thought I would do that course and then, I don’t know, see how I go and then go back to university. But I never did and one job led to another and I kind of found myself where I’m at.

Yeah, it’s been a really, um… it was a good decision to defer university. So following on from that, if you know could choose an art from, or could have chosen an art form to learn in your life, what would it have been and why?

I think it’s changed over the years. I think when I was younger I was very interested in studying science. I‘m not interested in studying that anymore. If I went back to uni, I’d probably want to read history. I don’t know if that’s an art from but that’s something that would interest me.

Ok and um for you, what are the key characteristic s that define a dancer? For you. If you were to define some as a dancer, what would be some of the key qualities that that person would have?

I think that they would have, that they could very easily, intuitively shift into a physical form… it’s a hard one. There’s a kind of, I don’t know how to say it, it sounds a bit weird but there’s a kind of physical intelligence. They’re able to kind of, almost with great ease, be able to move their bodies [connection crackly] What makes a dancer? I’ve certainly come across a lot. They seem to live in a much more physical world… I’ll have to get back to you on that

Ok sure. At the moment do you go out dancing at social events in your life?

I don’t. Well very rarely. Very rarely.

And why would that be? Is it something you used to do more?

I used to do it more. Look I think I’ve gone through a period as a professional dancer and then as a fairly well known choreographer, I became very self-conscious.

Yeah, I think I remember reading you saying something about that in some article somewhere.

I think I became very self-conscious. I’ve always been sort of a daggy dancer, social dancer.

Hang on, what do you mean by that? What’s a daggy dancer?

I don’t think I’m a, you know, a cool mover. I enjoy it, you know, but then because I have a reputation as a dancer and a choreographer, the idea that people would look at me and assess my dancing. I became very self-conscious, very uncomfortable about it. So there’s a long period of time where I didn’t go out social dancing. I think I’m more easy about it now but I’m also a lot older now so I guess I don’t make a huge effort. I get tired to be honest when it comes 1 o’clock at night. I’m not as interested as I used to be.

So say you’re at a wedding, a friend’s wedding, would you get up on the dance floor and dance?

Yeah, I would now. A few years ago I would have found it a lot harder. I definitely understood other people’s apprehension about social dancing, I know what they were feeling. And I still know what they were feeling.

So if you were to get up and dance now, would it still be the same kind of daggy dancing that you said you used to do before or has your style changed, social dance style, changed a bit since then.

A combination of both. I think I still am a bit of a daggy dancer but I…

I still don’t know what you mean by daggy dancer though? Can you describe it?

You know, you’re kind of like. You’re not the cool mover in a way. You’re just sort of gesticulating, bouncing around.

Are you in time? With the music?

I am in time. Yes I am definitely in time. But I’ve become a better dancer I think. I really don’t know. It’s very hard for me to understand what my dancing’s like.

So in terms of music, what kind of music makes you want to dance?

Oh, lots of music.

Is there some like songs that would definitely always get you out on the dance floor?

Yeah, look I am from particular era so things like kind of like 90s house and hip hop stuff is what I grew up with so I feel very, I connect with quite easily. Sort of dub stuff. Now I quite like dub because of the heavy kind of bass tunes. Sort of groove, heavy house kind of music I quite like.

So this dancing that we’ve just been talking about that happens on dance floors and weddings and everything, dancing that basically anyone can do, well most people, if they choose to. Do you consider it actually a style of dancing?

Look I think there is a style cause you can see it changing over the eras. It’s not something that’s constant in a way that people socially dance. If you look back at social dancing in the mid-1950s, in the mid-20^th century. It’s certainly different to what it was at the end of the 20^th century and it’s different again now in the early 21^st century. Yes there is a different style to it.

Do you think it’s a reflection of cultural trends or whatever’s going on in society at that point in time?

I think there is to a degree. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Moving onto some of your past work. I remember I was living in Melbourne in 2004 when you did I Want to Dance Better at Parties, the first one and I didn't get a chance to see it unfortunately but I remembered it when I was thinking about what to do for this dissertation. And that’s the original reason I got in contact with you because I remember being very interested in how you went about your research for that piece and what made you want to do a piece about guys who felt uncomfortable dancing, which I think is what the piece was, is about?

Well no, it’s partly about. In the end it’s about five different men. One of them is incredibly uncomfortable about dancing and he represents a whole lot of men I spoke to. But some people in the piece are comfortable about dancing so it’s kind of a cross section of men’s experience in regards to dance.

In terms of your research, where did you get your, who were the people you spoke to about the dancing and what kind of. I don’t know if you can remember, but what were some of the common things that came out in terms of how they viewed dancing?

I spoke to quite a few different men about their experience of dance around Melbourne. Say probably over 30 that I interviewed in a fairly comprehensive manner. And I got to them through, basically friends of friends and acquaintance of acquaintances. I basically put it out there that I was interested to talk to different men about their experiences with dace. I think there were some, no I’m just trying to think if I advertised at all, I don’t think I did in the end because it wasn’t very difficult to actually get a lot of people and I think they fell in to various categories. In that group there were a number of men who felt very uncomfortable about social dancing and didn’t like being on the dance floor at all and I did in the end focus on one who was just a great interviewee because in the end what the piece is, is a portrait of five different men, covered in depth. And each one represents I guess a different experience in regards to dance.

Did you find any kind of common, I don’t know what kind of questions it was that you asked them when you interviewed them and it was a long time ago so appreciate you might not remember but...

I do remember the men who felt uncomfortable about dancing. I think they felt incredibly self-conscious and they were very frightened of looking like a fool I think or of not being themselves. Not representing themselves. It’s a weird thing. This guy I spoke to who I used in the end, Frank. He said I don’t feel, when I dance, I don’t feel like I am the person who I really am. I feel like I’m somebody else. I don’t want to be represented in the way that I dance because people look at someone dancing, well he says, they look at their style and they look at how they appear and they make certain assumptions or judgments. They sort of appraise that person from their dancing. He’s a funny, smart guy but when he dances he just feels like total awkward human being. He feels very uncomfortable about that.

Interesting.

He also spoke of a terrible childhood experience to do with a dance floor and that gave him this kind of phobia that kind of continues to haunt his adult life. So it’s a story that I go into in the piece. He discusses and I think, look his one was kind of extreme in a way. And I’ll digress for a minute. As a young child, he would have been 8 or 9, he was at a 21^st birthday. He was a country boy and it was a big party in a big barn on a farm and these teenage girls he guessed who would have been about 14 or 15 thought of him as very cute cause he was dressed up in a suit. And they kind of dragged him onto the dance floor and made him dance with them to Saturday Night Fever, Bee Gees, which was a big film at the time and he totally froze cause he was so shy of the girls and the whole experience. And these girls started to get annoyed with him because he wouldn't dance so they started yelling at him to dance. And the more they yelled at him, the more he froze so he had this kind of Hitchcock experience.

Oh goodness. I don’t blame him.

So he got this sense that people were cackling at him and yelling at him and he ran away and hid behind this parents. [so now] his wife will try to get him out to the dance floor.

And it’s just a re-enactment of that whole scenario.

Yeah well he says his body, not his mind, but his body will get the same kind of fight or flight experience that he had as a young child and so he feels very uncomfortable and doesn't want to do it. I mean I think there is an age, and this is one of the things about, one of the cultural things I've noticed about folk dancing when I was young and talking to [unclear] or Greeks or South Americans who kind of grow up with a stronger folk dance culture but they grow up as young children dancing regularly in social environments with both children, adults in their sort of sexual age and post sexual age all dance the same dances. And they seem to have, those men seem to have much less of an issue in regards to dancing. They feel like socially, they’re much less self-conscious about the idea of dancing and I think that a lot of the men I met who were wary of dancing were from more of an Anglo-Saxon background. This is in Australia of course where dancing was very much about mating in a way. Social dance sort of starts in your teens where unfortunately you’re at an age where you’re incredibly self-conscious about so many things. This is both men and women and dancing is so focused about the opposite sex and being sexual and about going out and so I think it’s a very loaded experience in that already very difficult area and I think that’s why dancing can become very hard, it can become quite stigmatised in a way for men who have that experience. I think the other thing is that men really want to be in control of how everyone perceives them. I mean think everyone does but it’s very important for men to feel that they’re putting out the image of what they see themselves as. And I think that with a lot of free dancing, this is social dancing, you kind of feel out of control. They feel as if they’re not, I think it’s a difficult area for a lot of men and they’d rather not do it. I don’t have any evidence for this. This is something I just got the impression of from speaking with different men.

It’s a very interesting thing. You've just raised a lot of questions in my mind just what you said about… I think there is a rite of passage element to social dancing in society and like you say, depending on the point of where they happens for you, I think is quite key in terms of how you go onto the view social dancing as an adult.

That’s right. I mean I think if you were a nervous teenager already having tensions about the way you conduct yourself, how you are with the opposite sex, how you are socially; dance is a huge part of that thing. It hasn't been around before and it’s all about that. That’s an incredible amount of pressure for young men and women out on the dance floor because it becomes this massive big deal. Where boys and girls in South American, I’m generalising, but from South American backgrounds, from Mediterranean backgrounds kind of see dancing in a non-sexual way, that’s that just a part of a lot of things.

Of the culture.

I don’t think they don’t suffer as much from that.

Thanks for all that. That’s a lot of information there. I've got a question about the dancers that you've worked with. Past, present, whatever. Have you ever been out socially dancing with the dancers that you've worked with?

Yep.

And so when you have been out, what are the differences that you observe in these dancers when they’re out dancing socially as opposed to when you’re working with them in the studio? In terms of the way they dance?

They do vary a lot. There are some dancers I've worked with who are really fantastic professional dancers; they can do amazing things and they’re not comfortable in social dancing environments. I've worked with quite a few of those people but then they are dancers who are amazing professional dancers and they’re amazing social dancers as well.

So what do you think is the difference in say someone who, I mean obviously the dancers you’re working with are professional dancers so they’re going to be good in the studio. So what do you think is the difference in a professional dancer who is also a good social dancer as opposed to one that is not as comfortable dancing socially?

It’s hard to say. I’m careful of jumping to conclusions.

Of course. I’m just curious to see what you've found?

Look in my experience, I've worked with some dancers who've.They’ve been training from a young and they’re incredibly good professional dancers but they are very self-conscious and they’re very determined people. They’re very driven and they are very self-conscious and you can see that in their social dances. Because it’s what they do. It’s their instrument. So for them social dancing is never like social dancing on a person who is not a professional dancer because they cannot eliminate, they cannot take away that aspect of their identity and how they value themselves. About being a professional dancer. They are also dancers who do all of that who completely let that go and don’t have that kind of have an issue…. and I do find that… cause there’s this one dancer I worked with, Antony Hamilton who I’ll just use as an example and although he’s not very highly trained, I think he trained in Perth at WAAPA. He’s got a very strong hip-hop background as well so he had quite a strong background in that kind of social dancing and that kind of environment and he’s really comfortable dancing socially. And he’s an amazing dancer on the dance floor actually. Incredible. Very at ease and doesn't have an issue with that. And I think that because he’s got a bit of a beat boy background and the experience of public and social dancing – that’s what he comes from. Whereas Katherine Dunn who’s a person I worked with when I founded Chunky Moves, an amazing dancer and now she lives in New York. She’s come from the Royal Ballet and the [indecipherable] City Ballet, she’s an extraordinary dancer onstage but she’s not comfortable dancing socially and I think that her whole dancing experience has been really from a professional background. There’s been very little social experience in dancing and I think it’s very difficult for her to let that go in a social environment.

Cool – well you know what. That’s all the questions I have to ask you. Do you have any questions to ask me or anything else you’d like to add?

No not really, I’m just curious about what you’re studying in London?

Well it’s an MA in Dance Anthropology and this is for my dissertation and I've always been interested in... Well originally I wanted to do my dissertation in mature professional contemporary dancers but just lining up the field for that was just going to be too difficult in terms of my time limitations cause there’s not many of them around and even if they are around they might not be performing, rehearsing, touring or whatever in my dissertation time frame. So I decided that I would do this instead because it’s just something I've always been interested. It’s incredibly broad which makes it quite difficult but, I do dancing as well, I still do dancing but I just had a key moment when I was about 15, like we were talking about earlier about when you started going out dancing socially and everything. I’d had mainly ballet training up to that point, and we all went out one night, I think it was a party, and it just struck me that all my friends who were trained ballet dancers couldn't dance at this party. Like they just looked really awkward and uncomfortable, me included, and I just thought, this is weird. We’re trained dancers and we can’t dance and it always stuck in my head that kind of moment of realisation that just because you were trained in a form didn't actually mean you could get down. So that’s where it comes from this impetus to look into this area and dig a little bit deeper.

Yep. Oh good.

Are you happy for me? …What I’ll do is transcribe this interview.

I’m happy for you to use any part of it.

Are you sure? Do you want to see the transcription thought before it goes?…

Nah.

No? Ok.

You can email it to me but to be honest, I’ll read some if it but it’ll be fine.

Ok well in that case I’ll send it to you anyway. It’s due in September so when it’s all done I’ll send you the link and you can have a look at it, if you like.

Great, I’d love that.

Thank you so much. I really, really appreciate your time.

You’re welcome.

And best of luck with future work.

Cheers you too.

Bye.