Dissertation for MA (Dance Anthropology) - Roehampton University

This fieldwork diary forms part of a dissertation assessment for a Master of Arts (Dance Anthropology) from Roehampton University. If you wish to read the diary in chronological order, please click on the April tab in the Blog Archive box and start at March 10, 2014. Alternately, click here

The diary provides a behind-the scenes view of the fieldwork carried out. It is one of three documents forming the dissertation. Accompanying this diary is an academic paper which you can read here and also an online survey summary found here.  Below is the abstract for this dissertation:

In this dissertation,‘everyday dance’ is a dance phenomenon I have investigated. This type of dancing is found at weddings, parties, clubs and festivals; events where people participate in spontaneous, self-improvised, social dancing. I undertook fieldwork into everyday dance in London to examine the nature and perceptions of this dance type and how it is situated as an activity. This dissertation is constructed to be read online for full comprehension. My research is presented through three online documents; a formal academic paper, (http://goo.gl.VYivjf), a fieldwork diary (www.everydaydance2014.blogspot.co.uk) and an online survey summary 
(http://1drv.ms/1nx5Yk5). These three documents refer to one another throughout, the online diary and survey summary providing detailed information only touched upon within the academic paper. A bound hard copy of the academic paper is also presented in accordance to the traditional university requirements for a Masters dissertation.

All views expressed in this dissertation are my own. If you would like to get in touch regarding this work, please email me at: everydaydance2014@gmail.com

Last Fieldwork Diary Entry (July 7, 2014)

The fieldwork conducted for this research dissertation has been a work-in-progress throughout. Instead of an in-depth investigation of one field site, I have conducted a field skim over six different sites. I found this process appropriate for the research subject. Everyday dance, or spontaneous social dancing is so broad that it was useful to get a small taste of the dancing found at different places rather than concentrate on one venue or event.

It is always refreshing to be taken out of one's comfort zone so I particularly enjoyed visiting dance events in different areas of London that I had not been to before and interacting with the people that I found there. I was extremely heartened by the strong response I received in my survey. I had hoped to get at least fifty responses and so to have seventy four people respond was fantastic. My regret being that there is so much information contained within the survey that I could only touch upon the data contained therein. 

Here are some of the new places I visited during my fieldwork:

The dance floor at Duke's Bar
Image courtesy of http://www.designmynight.com

The Future Laboratory
Image courtesy of http://insidefmm.com/

Ovalhouse Theatre
Image courtesy of http://www.londontheatre.co.uk/

St Swithuns Church Hall
Image courtesy of
http://ourhithergreen.com/

As I visited field sites briefly, I didn't have the in depth engagement with people at each site as a more traditional field work set up might achieve. I found this engagement instead through the interview process. I enjoyed speaking with the eight volunteer interviewees. Some were known to me prior to the interview and others not.  But to speak with all of them in an in depth way about dance proved to be an enjoyable process.  Several times, I ended the interview regretfully as I found the conversation so interesting (although I'm not sure all my interviewees felt the same way) The interview process was my favourite research tool throughout this project.

Several friends supported me through the research process by sending me dance related information such as articles, YouTube clips, dance events to attend and other topical materials. The field broadened every day due their thoughtfulness and interest. Other friends put me in touch with potential interview subjects and others volunteered to go dancing with me. It was heart-warming to have such support and also to feel that because I was so focused on everyday dance, it perhaps passed into the awareness of others too. 

                           Some of the Youtube dance clips I was sent during the research period

It was a huge effort for me and my family to structure our lives to enable my fieldwork to happen. It has been tiring and expensive. It has been really enjoyable at times and not others. I have struggled with guilt throughout. How do you explain that fieldwork is the reason why you keep disappearing to a three year old kid and is it fair that your husband has no break for four months so you can go out dancing? Sometimes the last thing I wanted was to drag myself out to dance with my researcher's hat on. Which is why some intended field sites such as a night out with work friends at a bar or a time travelling DJ dance night became simply social nights out. Despite the ups and downs, the last four months of fieldwork have reaffirmed how much I relish it as a research method.

I was very much a part of the key demographic within my research; those who say that the older they get, the harder it is to go out dancing. Before I started this project, I had only been out dancing once in the last two years. My everyday dance life was non- existent despite my love for it. Once I got out there again via fieldwork, I was  reminded that time on the dance floor can rejuvenate in ways untold. It is hard to describe the sense of well-being that a good dance can generate. As I said before, it really does feel like the ultimate high. 

Going out dancing helped me reclaim an energy, attitude and perspective which I had let lapse since my twenties. My mind had calcified over the topic of everyday dance and I had become stuck in my thinking about it. Like many in my age demographic, I had ceased to think of everyday dance as a regular activity which I could participate in. My chief reason being that it was just too hard to organise myself to do it. But now I can see that was just an excuse. It is harder to do it than when I was in my twenties and childfree but not that hard.

Although I started out trying to find out what made people dance the way they do on the dance floor, my research question changed to three questions. One of these is:

Why do people stop going out to participate in everyday dance once they get to a certain age?

In my academic paper, I address this question more formally and take a stab at the factors which support or negate the act of everyday dance. But here in my fieldwork diary I summarise it as such:

It is perceived as being too hard. And our society supports them in this thinking for dance as a physical, socio-cultural leisure activity is not promoted as an activity to be prioritised.

Which indeed is a great shame. 

Whilst I am closing the chapter on the fieldwork I have presented here, I doubt that I will ever really close it for myself. I hope to keep going to new and known events and places where people are participating in everyday dance. For if there is anything I have learned from this research, it is that the more tired I am, the more stressed I am, whenever I am feeling the strain of life; I need to go out dancing.  

For I feel that as long as I am out dancing, everything will be ok.

Five Rhythms Dance Night: Unintentional Field Visit (July 24, 2014)

Although I had officially completed all fieldwork site visits for this project in June, I attended a dance event in July that I wanted to write about. 

The event was a Five Rhythms dance drop-in night. Five Rhythms is a dance practice founded by Gabrielle Roth in the 1970s. On the international Five Rhythms website, it is described as, 'a dynamic movement practice - a practice of being in your body - that ignites creativity, connection and community.' The movement practice, or moving mediation as it is also called, is broken down into five elements, or 'waves.' These waves are called flowing, staccato, chaos, lyrical and stillness.  A Five Rhythms teacher guides a group through these waves during the event; encouraging people to get to a point where they are highly attuned to the movement within themselves. The website states that the waves are, 'markers back to a real self, a vulnerable, wild passionate self.'

                                              Youtube clip of Gabrielle Roth explaining Five Rhythms

Before attending the night, I was vaguely aware of Five Rhythms but had no knowledge of its philosophy. I knew it to be an improvisational dance event where you could move however you liked. I had never attended a Five Rhythms event as I had no previous desire to. However my friend Robyn was keen to try it and as she had helped me with my dance research by attending a parents retro disco, I agreed to go along. 

We arrived at the venue, a church hall in South London around 7.20pm. There were already about 30 people scattered throughout, talking and stretching on carpets that had been laid down to cover the concrete floor. The church hall with its arched doorways, high ceiling and ornate glass windows was very atmospheric and I looked forward to dancing in the space.

The church hall 

As we had chosen to attend a drop in night, there was no introduction to the format of the event. The lady who took our class fee (£7 for Robyn and £9 for me - a sliding fee dependent on your income levels) gave us a placard to read which described the five waves. She and told us to look out for the two guides; people who helped facilitate movement throughout the session. I asked about leaving early and she said it would not be looked upon kindly (the session ran from 7.30pm- 9.30pm) as it would be seen as disruptive. On hearing this, I felt slightly trapped. As it was a drop in night, I had assumed there would be a fluidity to the procedures. Also there had been no mention in the advertising that you could not leave early. 

Robyn and I sat down in a alcove section of the church and surveyed the surroundings. Attendants covered a wide demographic; all walks of life ranging from teens to people in their 60s. I saw people walking in wearing business attire. Pensioners. People who looked like mums and dads from my local playgroup. Hippies. It was a real mix, including ethnicities ranging from Afro Caribbean to Oriental to Anglo-Saxon and Hispanic, but to name a few.  Most people once there changed into loose clothing allowing for movement, such as leggings, shorts, t-shirts or exercise wear. The number of males present surprised me. Whilst I do not have the exact numbers, the number of men seemed higher than women. From a rough head count, I estimated approximately 70-90 people in attendance. The high attendance surprised me too as it did not seem like a class but a gathering instead, in the sense of a festival or a club. 

To our left, a laptop with microphone had been set up in the form of a makeshift DJ station.  Robyn went to find out more information about what to expect and she returned with the ground rules of the night. From memory they included:

• No talking in the dance space
• No watching of other people. The emphasis is on participation
• Being mindful of self safety and the safety of others whilst moving about
• No leaving early
• Joining in the group circle at the end

Whilst I logically appreciate the need for some basic ground rules, my initial instinct was to bristle at the contradiction of being an event which was about freedom of self- expression whilst being told how we were going to achieve this by following rules. I was aware of my irrational reaction but the idea that we couldn't leave early and also the large number of people present had thrown me so I was on edge. As it was, Robyn and I had already broken two of the rules by watching people and talking as we waited for the event to start.

Soon enough music started to fill the room, being controlled by a slim main with curly brown hair in a red t shirt and white shorts. He started talking through the microphone about warming up and being in touch with the music and letting it flow through you. I gathered he was the teacher/facilitator but found it hard to understand what he was saying; either because of the uneven acoustics or his whispery tone. Eventually I decided to just watch others (despite the rules) and follow what they were doing. Quickly it became apparent they were moving however they wished to, the quality of movement determined largely by the music being played.

It seemed that many of the attendants were familiar with the format of Five Rhythms for within 20 -30 minutes, many seemed to enter into semi-ecstatic states. There were times when people would interact with one another and move together before breaking off and dancing somewhere else or with someone else. This reminded me a lot of contact improvisation. Some people seemed to be off in other worlds, the expressions on their faces blank. Others like me, were overly watchful and contravening the rules. The movement styles throughout the room varied considerably from frenetic jigging to waving arms in the air to galloping through the space to twig like weaving shapes; the commonality being a lack of restraint.

                                            Five Rhythms clip showing all the waves (taken from Youtube)

By this point the room felt heavy with meaning but whatever that meaning was for others, remained hidden from me. By this time I had been moving for about 30-40 minutes and had not found a way into the movement. I was not enjoying the music which was instrumental and of a trance-like nature, with some percussive mixes thrown in. I found it disconcerting that some men would watch you from the corners of their eyes or sidle up to interact through dance with you. Far from being relaxed and free, this made me feel defensive and self-conscious. I ended up dancing away from other people at the side of the hall, carving out my own space rather than interacting with the majority who were weaving amongst one another in the central hall space. I noticed there were a few others who did this too, a woman close by me and a man who danced all night in the manner of a hyped up Charleston dancer with a big grin on his face. 

As each music mix finished, the teacher whispered something into the microphone which I gathered was the introduction of a new wave given the different tempo of the music that followed. The group would respond accordingly, their movements enlivening or slowing down in response. About ninety minutes in, the percussive music playing built to a crescendo, sending the crowd into a yelping, cavorting, sweaty mass of limbs and faces. Robyn by this time had fully embraced the event and was amidst the heaving crowd, lost in her movement and music. I on the other hand was sitting on the floor, tired and thinking I wanted to leave. I could see that a large majority of dancers were getting some form of release through the movements they were doing, their faces beaming and their bodies becoming increasingly carefree. 

At this point one of the guides materialised in front of me. I knew she was a guide as we had been told they wore yellow armbands. She danced in front of me with a big smile on her face, her eyes never leaving my face. I knew what she wanted and my honest reaction was annoyance and dread. I just wanted to sit quietly but in her role to facilitate my movement mediation she clearly wanted me to do something else. I smiled at her hoping she would move on but she did not. She beckoned me to my feet. Taking the path of least resistance, I stood up and danced with her. I wondered why I couldn't be left to sit still if that was what I wanted. I did not feel I was in a space of real democratic, free expression. 

Dancing half-heartedly I stayed until 9.15pm and decided to slip out. Throughout the 
entire night I had not switched my mind off, which I know impacted my ability to fully engage with the dance. I found this event unique in that I could not switch off from my 'ethnographic note taking persona' as the field was so different to any of the other sites I had visited.  I looked over at Robyn* as I headed out, her face beatific and relaxed as she moved to the music. I was happy for her. It seemed to me that Five Rhythms could really benefit some in providing therapeutic release in the form of dance - like movement. Also that the teacher facilitating plays a significant role in the experience of the event. Robyn and I were left largely to fend for ourselves in this first experience and whilst she embraced it, I did not. However I have decided that after my research has finished I will try Five Rhythms again, with a different facilitator. Like my initial reservations with No Lights No Lycra, I think you should always give these things a second chance. 

*After the event I ask Robyn if she would be willing to fill in a research participant questionnaire even though we had not attended with the intent to engage in fieldwork. She agreed and also emailed me her comparison between this event and the retro disco we had attended together. We had both enjoyed the disco and I was curious to see what the factors were at each event which affected her enjoyment. 

Questionnaire: Research Participants in Fieldwork

Name:

 

Robyn Stocker

Age:

 

34 

Location:

 

London

Profession:

 

DJ & Project Manager

Are you trained in any style of dance? If so, what was the period of training, e.g. 12 years in jazz, one off workshop in salsa:

 

I trained in ballet, contemporary for 6 years and then shorter periods of salsa, samba, bellydancing, street dance and a one off kathak class.

 

Do you regularly partake in any kind of dance activity in your daily life? e.g. Zumba classes, clubbing and so on:

 

I generally dance when I go out with friends, would like to start samba classes again.

How did you feel prior to taking part in this dance research event? What were your expectations?

 

Prior to the 5 Rhythms event I didn’t have any expectations but the experience in fact exceeded my expectations! It was very liberating.

Did you feel comfortable dancing at the event? Why? Why not?

 

I did straight away because I didn’t feel judged by anyone, the nature of the event is such that people turn up specifically to express themselves through dance. No drugs and alcohol or spectating. The ground rules made it very clear that it was a meditative and respectful space and that the idea is full acceptance of other participants.

 

Please feedback your thoughts about the following at the dance event you attended:

The venue:

 

Great venue, I love churches so it set a very soothing scene.

The music:

 

The music progressed from meditative music to tribal beats and deep house sounds. In fact very close to my taste in music, very trance-like.

The other people at the event:

 

Very respectful and also heart-warming, if somewhat amusing. People really let loose… women wailing, men skipping, strangers hugging. But for me the best part was being a part of connection with others and being able to pickup the energy and vibrations of others through the movement. Very intuitive and pure.

The clothing worn at the event:

 

I enjoyed being able to wear something comfortable rather than to present myself attractively like in some environments.

The atmosphere:

 

Great energy, the only thing I wasn’t so keen on was the sweat and the sweaty smells!! Natural but not particularly appealing. It was because people allowed themselves to put their full energy into it and it was 30 degrees!!

The dancing that happened at the event:

 

Beautiful. It may have looked strange from the outside but participating felt very natural and in tune, also liberating. I also didn’t have a judgment on who was a good dancer and who wasn’t because everyone was there to get in touch with their natural rhythm.

The timing of the event (was it too early? Did it go on for too long?):

 

It was quite long because at one point I got tired and had to stop, but I suppose for the transition of energy states to occur, it needed that length of time. For me, slightly shorter would be better. Good time of the day though. Nice to see the transition from sunset to candlelight.

The cost:

 

Nice that it was based on trust and that you contribute the level you can afford, from £7 upwards.

How would you describe the way you danced at the event?

 

I danced completely freely and did not feel the need to stop because I was so energised by being in tune with my natural rhythm. I think if you don’t allow yourself to get fully into it, then it’s not enjoyable. It has to be 100% participation and willingness to participate.

Would you attend this event again? Why ? Why not?

 

Yes for sure, I find it a great release and energiser, even if it totally wiped me physically from the sheer intensity of the exercise.

Below is Robyn's comparison of the Five Rhythms night to the parents retro disco night:

I thought that the 5 rhythms was more engaging because everyone was participating. It was a more spiritual and intense experience as people got in touch with their core selves and there was no need to judge anyone (even though judgements inadvertently flew around my head anyway, they were quicker to pass). 

The parents disco also had a warm atmosphere but it was much less intense and deep, more observational and entertaining. In a way, it was liberating because I didn't feel the need to worry about how I looked or was perceived and didn't require me to face my inner self in quite the same way, but it wasn't a meditative environment. Less therapeutic, more relaxing in a light and fun sense.

So both were fun, enjoyable and relaxing but in very different ways and on very different levels. I also felt with the 5 rhythms that I belonged more because it felt like a part of a movement whereas the kids disco was more me enjoying participating from an outsider perspective

  

Fieldwork Diary Entry (July 7, 2014)

I have decided to bring my field work to a close, albeit reluctantly, in order to start the process of tying everything up.

I say reluctantly for I want to go out dancing more than ever. Like many of the people within my research, I had allowed it to fall aside as a priority.  Forcing myself to go out dancing, for the purposes of this fieldwork research has reminded me how important it is to flex the everyday dance muscle and keep it working.  As Joanna Zawadzka said in our interview 

It’s so strange that, as you were saying it [dancing] should be second nature, like walking [and] it’s not and it’s so sad that we are human beings, we've somehow isolated dancing to be something that has to be learnt so well. It’s like practising a language. Sometimes you’re embarrassed to speak another language until you've perfected how you pronounce it and I think that dancing can be the same.

The benefits of going out dancing are numerous. But for me it comes down to one thing.

A enjoyable session of spontaneous social dancing gives me a unique sense of well-being.  

It's not something that always happens when out dancing and it's not something that can be controlled. It either happens or it doesn't.

But when it does, it really is for me, the ultimate high.

It's a high that is cumulative and resonates through into all areas of my life. It stays on and magnifies in effect; benefitting relationships, outlook, physical and emotional health, creativity. It is holistic in its effect upon me and my life.

That's why I have decided that as tough as it is with work, kids, energy, time, no-one to go dancing with, crappy clubs, ad nauseum; I want to ensure that I go out dancing regularly. I have found through my research that there are places for people of my age to go and there is no real reason not to go apart from not wanting to make the effort. Every other barrier is just perception.

My husband asked me after all this research, why do I think people don't go out dancing as much anymore when they enter a certain stage of life.

I started citing all the reasons I had been given and all the trends shown.  Why for people in our age demographic, going to the gym is easier. Going out to dinner is easier. Seeing a film is easier.

And then I said this.

I think that there is an unknown element to going out to dance freestyle. You really cannot predict what dancing is going to happen or how you are going to feel. You have to expose yourself on a certain level in order to be able to get into it and enjoy it. It can be a difficult thing to do, especially when you have fallen out of the habit and also have no-one to go with. Even with the best will in the world, it can require a lot of effort. I love going out dancing and even I barely went before all this research forced me out there again.

I look around at my age demographic and everyone is knackered. They are tired from work, looking after property and other material belongings, rearing families, health issues, financial pressures, aging parents and just the rigmarole of day to day life.

But you know what? It isn't going to get any better.

If you are knackered, do a bit less of this
(Image taken from here)

It doesn't make sense to me that at a period in our lives when we need all the benefits that dancing can provide the most, we do it the least.

And a bit more of this
(Image taken from here)

I don't have any more answers than when I first started this research. Only a stronger conviction of the importance of incorporating everyday dance into everyday life.

Fieldwork Diary Entry (July 5, 2014)

As mentioned in one of my earlier posts, the reason that everyday dance interests me is because it is a democratic dance type. It requires no training, almost everyone has the ability to do it and in fact, being a trained dancer or dance professional can work against you when dancing this way. 

I interviewed several dance professionals as part of my research and all of them, bar one agreed that they danced less freely and more self-consciously on a social dance floor as a result of their training. For myself, this is definitely the case and I usually have to overcome self-consciousness before enjoying everyday dance. In the academic paper, I discuss that the self- consciousness and anxiety that many non -trained dancers have to overcome in order to enjoy everyday dancing, is also experienced by many trained dance professionals  

In a  recent Guardian article, dancer and choreographer, Akram Khan discussed how the formation of his own company put an end to his everyday dancing; that is until the birth of his daughter:

Dancer/choreographer Akram Khan used to do that: he won competitions dancing to Michael Jackson as a child, and would go clubbing as a young man. But since forming his company in 2000, that pretty much stopped. He remembers acutely a moment after a 2005 performance of the duet Zero Degrees, where he was witness to the rare sight of fellow dancer/choreographer Sidi Larbi Cherkaoui freestyling at a party. "I was horrified!" remembers Khan, "because he was just so free. And I was so self-conscious that I felt naked – more naked than I would on stage, because there are no rules. Maybe I have a problem with thinking too much about movement." The birth of Khan's daughter last year put some fun and funk back into his feet. "Now I dance with her every morning in my living room," he says. "We put on Japanese nursery music – and Don't Stop Till You Get Enough. She has kind of freed me up. I can let go more because I'm relating to a child. Maybe I wouldn't even mind dancing around in public – as long as she was with me."

It's a common sentiment that children can make all the difference when it comes to self-consciousness in adults when dancing, as discussed in my Monski Mouse post.

How professional dancers freestyle at home. Just like everyone else
Image courtesy of http://scientific-culture.blogspot.co.uk/

During our interview, Gideon Obarzanek discussed why he thought some trained dancers have this self -consciousness when it comes to everyday dance:

They’re very driven and they are very self-conscious and you can see that in their social dances. Because it’s what they do. It’s their instrument. So for them social dancing is never like social dancing on a person who is not a professional dancer because they cannot eliminate, they cannot take away that aspect of their identity and how they value themselves. About being a professional dancer. They are also dancers who do all of that who completely let that go and don’t have that kind of have an issue

Another dancer in the Guardian article, Jen Irons explained that this hurdle experienced by some dance professionals is perhaps because:

For many of us, I think the original attraction to dancing was that if felt good. After years of training and having movement dissected, criticised and analysed, we have less connection to that. In fact, in performance, we are told that it is self-indulgent to do so.

It is striking that many of the dancers juxtapose everyday dance as being pleasurable, fun and letting go in comparison with their professional dancing which is more about analysis and attention to detail.

Just goes to show that everyday dance can be a release for everyone, professional dancers included.

So Blue - Louise Lecavalier - Southbank Centre (July 2, 2014)

I've been going to see a lot of dance this year and last night I went to see Louise Lecavalier perform her first choreographic work, So Blue at the Southbank Centre

I'm a big advocate of professional dancers who are older than thirty. Especially female dance artists. There aren't that many of them around. So when they perform, I go. 

Louise Lecavalier
Image courtesy of http://www.ottawacitizen.com/

For So Blue, Lecavalier used what she calls 'spontaneous movements' (aka 'everyday') as foundations within the choreography to expose, 'something true and beyond our control.'* She discussed this during the post show Q & A where she said she wanted to use movements that were less 'dancerly' as she feels that such movements can sometimes alienate an audience.  The repetitive nature of Lecavalier's 'everyday movements' which form the basis of this work is something which I discuss in my academic essay; that of spontaneous everyday dance as being rooted in repetitive, performative movements.

Throughout the hour long set, I marvelled at how she turned these 'everyday' motions inside out, so that they became enhanced and compulsive to watch. It was as if she was magnifying the ridiculousness, rhythm and odd beauty of the random gestures that proliferate our lives. The way Lecavalier tied all these motions together in pulsating alignment alongside a great score and lighting was testament to her skill and experience. 

I think I held my breath for the whole hour. 

                   Southbank Centre promotional clip from Youtube

Afterwards, Louise and her fellow dancer, Frederic Tavernini sat for a post show Q & A, chaired by dance critic, Donald Hutera. One particular question asked by an audience member made me wish I had an audio recorder on me. Instead the following is written from memory:

Guy: 

Some of the choreography in the show looked really specific and worked on, whilst there where other moments where you two looked really casual and fierce. Like you were randomly dancing at a club, which I liked. How much time did you two go out dancing at clubs to pick up those moves, as opposed to how much time you spent in the studio rehearsing?

LL: 

Well I don't really have the time go to clubs anymore. I'm a mother, I have kids now so I don't go out that much to dance at clubs. I used to. But I also don't need to because I already have the movement.  It's in me. We all have it, it's in all of us. People think that if they go to a club, they'll pick up the movement but you don't need to go to a club. You just need a bit of space anywhere to move as it's already in you.

It was a great answer and instantly made me think of all the people throughout my research who told me that they don't 'go' dancing anymore.

She's right though isn't she? We don't need to 'go' to the dance to find it. It's already here.

Inside us.

* Taken from show guide 

Interview with Victoria Da Silva and Carlos Pons Guerra and (June 27, 2014)

Interview with Victoria da Silva and Carlos Pons Guerra  
Dance Industry Professionals

Friday June 27, 2014

11.30am – 12.10pm

Oval House Theatre, London

Carlos Pons Guerra is the Artistic Director of DeNada Dance Theatre. Victoria Da Silva is a founding member of DeNada and also assistant rehearsal director. I was given Carlos' details by a friend who knew I was looking for professional dancers to interview. Carlos kindly agreed to be interviewed and asked if I would also like to interview Victoria, a friend and dancer from his company.

Carlos Pons Guerra. Photo from here

Victoria da Silva. Photo from here

Transcript:                                      

                                              Audio recording of interview with Carlos & Victoria

LS:

Ok shall we start? So I’m here with Carlos and Victoria and they’re both trained professional dancers and I’m just going to be asking them some of their thoughts about social dancing. So firstly, Victoria, do you want to tell me a little about your training and your background in dance?

VDS:

Yes, I started doing gymnastics, rhythmic gymnastics when I was about five years old. Trained for about 13, 15 years. Anyway then I started doing contemporary dance.

LS:

Here?

VDS:

In Spain, that was all in Spain and then I came to England to do proper training in contemporary dance.

LS:

Where did you train when in England?

VDS:

I did it in Leeds at [the] Northern School of Contemporary Dance and I came here five years ago. I trained for three years and now I stay to develop my profession.

LS:

So how long have you been working as a professional dancer for?

VDS:

Two years.

LS:

And is that the primary thing that you do or do you do other things also?

VDS:

I do teaching also.

LS:

Dance teaching?

VDS:

Yes and gymnastics teaching.

LS:

And do you mind me asking how old you are?

VDS:

I’m twenty seven.

LS:

And you live in London?

VDS:

No I live in Leeds. We just move around England depending.

LS:

On where the work is.

VDS:

Exactly yeah.

LS:

Ok Carlos, what about you?

CPG:

I’m from Gran Canaria in Spain.

LS:

Oh really, I always wanted to go there.

CPG:

Go, it’s beautiful. I started dancing quite late, say at fifteen. I always wanted to dance. Watching my sister, she used to do flamenco and I always wanted to do a bit but my parents didn't think it was the right thing for boys so I managed to secretly get to classes, ballet classes when I was fifteen.

LS:

How did you manage that?

CPG:

Well there was a lot of fighting. A lot of fighting. I saved some money and I told them it was just like a summer workshop thing that they did all sorts of theatre with a bit of dancing.  They kind of thought doing theatre was alright. And so I did and then they eventually let me take classes in ballet but they really didn't support it and they really didn't like it. And then I really wanted to study performing arts. I thought I was going to do drama but then I started liking dance more and then I didn't even know what contemporary was but there was a school in England, the Northern School of Contemporary Dance. I sent them a video of me doing ballet and I got a place. So I came over to England I didn't know what contemporary dance was.

LS:

How old were you at that point?

CPG:

Seventeen.

LS:

So you’d been doing ballet for two years at this point?

CPG:

Yeah and I didn't know what contemporary dance was so it was all a bit Iike… so then I just stayed. My parents really didn't like it so I had to go to uni for a year to do English and then I decided to go back to the dance school and I finished training contemporary there. Once I finished my training, it took a bit longer than it should have because I was moving back and forth. I started auditioning but I realised I really enjoyed choreography more.

LS:

Making your own work.

CPG:

Making my own work and seeing it on other people. I think it was just because I wasn't very good at doing what other people told me to do. Not that I like telling other people what to do but I didn't really like.

LS:

[Not] being in charge?

CPG:

Being in charge of it but also create whatever was happening rather than have to do what was already created in a way.

LS:

And is your work in, mainly contemporary that you devise in?

CPG:

It’s a contemporary style but I’m very postmodern and I like pastiche so I like to mix things up and put in things from different places. Like we don’t flamenco really but I’m inspired by it so we kind of get inspired by flamenco dance. I do love ballet as well so I try and throw in ballet references whenever I can and recently cause my partner used to dance in musicals, I throw in some Fosse. I like to reference them. But I would say the work is contemporary but it has a lot of influences and references.

LS:

And how long have you been working as a choreographer now?

CPG:

Two years.

LS:

And how old are you, do you mind me asking?

CPG:

Twenty six.

LS:

Would that be your primary profession now?

CPG:

I do bits and bobs. I’m a dance critic as well for Dance Europe and I teach dance history and I proof read and I translate. But the aim is that choreography will hopefully be the prime job.

LS:

Ok well thank you for that, both of you. Right so we've talked a bit about your dance training. Are either of you trained in any other art forms as well, apart from dance? Do you play an instrument or painting?

VDS:

I never. I was sports girl. I discovered dance more as a physical thing than an art, for me.  And then, little by little I discovered it was an art and I started being into it a bit more as art but I was, am a physical dancer. And also interested in art but it came later.

LS:

Ok cool. What about you? [Carlos]

CPG:

I did. I trained in music since I was very little. So I did piano, violin. I play the guitars as well but not very well. I did a lot of drama as well since I was little so there was a lot of theatre. So I would say my approach to dance was the opposite. It was more of an art form and then I saw it was a lot more expressive than theatre or music could be.

LS:

Ok that’s interesting. Could you explain a bit more to me why you find dance more expressive than the other two art forms?

CPG:

I remember watching a ballet performance. The first time I watched at thirteen or something and I just saw the bodies and I realised that bodies were just expressing themselves without any other tool. I felt that with music, unless you’re singing I guess, you need words or you need your instrument. With drama as well you need text. With writing you need the words but it seemed like with dance, the body was the purest. The body could be naked and it could say a lot and it didn't need a lot on top of that. So it just seemed to me the most purest and honest form of expression.

LS:

That’s very interesting. So for you guys, as dancers, and how you perceive other dancers, what are some key characteristics for you that would define a person that you would call a dancer? Is it their physicality or the fact that. .. For example, for me, someone who is a good dancer when I watch them is when they move, it makes me want to move. That’s one of the key things for me. So for you guys, what are some of those key things?

VDS:

For me when I see a dancer, and it makes me feel something, that’s when I say, 'Whoa yeah. You are a good dancer.' Or I understand, not always understand but I get into the story or whatever it is. I get really involved.

LS:
They draw you in in some way?

VDS:

Exactly yeah. Basically that’s all. I don’t really care about technique or musicality or anything like that. It’s more about what they say.

LS:

Through their movement?

VDS:

Through the movement, yeah.

CPG:

I’m a bit split between that because I do find that I do really appreciate technique in someone and I do appreciate an aesthetic sense in how you’re moving.

LS:

Infrastructure?

CPG:

Yeah or being very aware of form but I realise it’s quite an archaic kind of conception but I do follow it. I do think also there is something about even people who are not trained, a sense of dynamic and of being able to use different rhythms even if they’re not conscious of doing it. So rather than just moving in one single rhythm they've got… for me dynamic is drama so it’s having that. And then I think there is also something. I think it comes from quite inside. Yesterday there was a girl performing and she’s not trained as a dancer and she does this monologue where she’s pretending she’s in a club. But there was something really entrancing in the rhythm that she had. The internal rhythm and it just made me watch her. It was really entrancing what she was doing so I think there’s something. It’s not about being rhythmical or musical. I think it’s about having an interior rhythm and letting your body follow that, whatever that rhythm is.

LS:

That just leads me to another question. This is the last interview I’m doing, I've done another five interviews and there’s been lots of things brought up. And one of the things that some of the other interviewees have brought up is that there’s a belief that as human beings we do have an innate rhythms within ourselves. Is that something you guys believe, do you think it’s something that we’re just born with and dance is just an expression of that?

CPG:

Yeah.

VDS:

Definitely you can see people who have never trained in dance and they have it inside and you can see people who have good technique, they've been dancing for twenty years, and then they don’t have anything, they don’t tell you anything.

LS:

That’s interesting as well. Do you think that technique sometimes, or training can actually hamper a way someone dances socially? Let me tell you something first. One of the reasons I decided to do this topic was when I was, I trained when I was younger as well and up to about 14, 15, my main training was ballet. And I was fifteen so I was a teenager and we started going out dancing at clubs and stuff. And I realised myself and a lot of the other girls that I trained with at the time just couldn't really dance that well cause we were so trained and we had not had much experience of social dancing and we didn't  know how to let go and follow the music. And it really shifted my thinking about dancing and ever since then, my view’s been quite different about dancing.  So what do you think about dancing. Do you think that training sometimes gets in the way of that expression?

CPG:

Yeah I think so cause for example last week when we were making this piece, whether you trained in ballet and contemporary, you've got rhythm that’s innate you've got this or that and you train to follow the music and you be on the music and be on the time.  I was choreographing movement for Murray Victoria and our mentor came in and said. ‘You've choreographed it exactly to the music so the rhythm that’s come up isn't  particularly exciting or original because it’s exactly to the music.’ And I find that sometimes when you’re just not thinking about any of these things, you come up with very interesting rhythms and very different dynamics that you don’t if you stick to a conventional dance rhythm. And I was teaching children once. They were only like four or five and they put some silly song on. I think it was Madonna and they were all dancing and there was one girl. She was a girl, slightly a bit different to the rest. And they were all dancing to the rhythm and she was, I don’t know what she was doing. She was just throwing her arms out at odd times and she had an amazing, very interesting movement quality because whatever she was doing, she was inside herself and doing what she wanted rather than what the music said, and I found that, Oh wow, that was very interesting and choreographically that was a lot more rich than what the other children were doing.

LS:

There’s more texture I guess to that.

CPG

And it’s something, I don’t know what the girl was imagining, but there was something more expressive and a lot more honest and sincere.

VDS:

For me technique is not that takes your own rhythm out of it, it’s not that. I think that technique is necessary but you cannot get stuck into technique. For example ballet is technique but which ones are the best dancers? The ones that have good technique and also have something else that they express. They do something else. So technique is very important but you have to do improvisation. You have to do whatever else, loads of things to really dance.

LS:

And you have to perhaps live a life as well and bring that to your [work].

VDS:

Of course, it’s very important to live your own life and then how to express that through your body so technique cannot be the only thing. And I sometimes found that when people, these kinds of dancers that are special in that they don’t think about technique and when they get into technique they lose a bit of whatever made them special. But if you keep training, you can put it together and it can work but if you stay stuck into technique it’s not going to happen but you learn how to mix both things and this is when you are a dancer really. When you are a professional dancer. But yeah, of course you can be training in technique for years and years and not really be able to dance.

LS:

I agree. So let’s move on to the social dancing thing that I was talking to you guys about. Do you guys go out dancing? Do you dance much in your private life, at parties, clubs? Weddings?  At home?

CPG:

Yeah, we relax a little bit.

LS:

Can you explain a bit what kind of events or places you would go to go out dancing?

CPG:

All sorts really. I go to all kinds of clubs. I go to gay clubs. But I think, we normally, we’re best friends [referring to Victoria] I discovered when I was eighteen, nineteen that I really like to go to not raves, but more drum and bass kind of things where I could actually dance weird.

LS:

What do you mean by that?

CPG:

I don’t know. Even since I was little, I remember being at kids parties. Like this little girl I was speaking about before. I kind of came up with weird movements that were really funny that I wanted to do. Just like odd movements and I think that in a drum and bass gig, people are just kind of like doing their own thing and I felt that I could like, not do contemporary dance as such but, I've been known to do it, but it felt like you could really get into the music and let it do whatever you wanted to do. And you could just kind of swish around with your arms and your back and then turn and bump into your friend. Actually when I was fifteen, sixteen I used to go to a lot of rock gigs and heavy metal stuff.

LS:

For the same reason?

CPG:

Yeah I liked the music. I was a goth but there was, you know, you do all this thing at rock concerts where everyone runs into each other and there was something about the liberty of that movement and being able to just bump into each other spill your drink and it didn't matter. It wasn't like all the more upstream bars and the more posh bars where 
everyone’s all looking pretty and beautiful and standing with their drinks like that. It’s more about letting go and being what you wanted to be. So I think that is the kind of event that I liked when I used to go out dancing.

LS:

What about now though? If you were to go out dancing?

CPG:

I think I still would enjoy that. I think if I go to a more conventional bar, I rather just have a beer and sit and talk. But to get me really open and dancing, I like to go somewhere where there is Motown or really cheesy music where you can be silly. But I’m really not into going somewhere and dancing sexy. It’s not really my thing.

LS:

What about you Victoria?

VDS:

I actually quite agree with him. I started also liking rock, punk and things like that because of the energy that this music gives you and so you can get mental.  And then I kind of discovered electronic music which I used to hate because it’s really like dum, dum, dum dum. But then when you start listening to drum and bass when it goes mwaaah, you can do whatever you can actually really explore your body and in this kind of reference people don’t really look at you that much. I normally feel really ashamed to go to maybe a posh bar, I have to be careful I don’t really want to let myself go too much because people watch you. They come to you and they go, ‘Oh you dance really well’ and you’re like, Ok right. I’m just going to be subtle now.' When you go to crazy places, people don’t look at you so I’d rather go to clubs where they don’t look at you, so if I go on [the] floor, whatever.

CPG:

I think also, I've found that I've been to places where people have been quite judgmental 

LS:

How can you tell that they’re being judgmental?

CPG:

Well that actually come and tell you don’t dance so much.

LS:

Oh really?

CPG:

Or don’t dance so weird or be careful. It happened to us that we might be, not doing a duet but snaking in and out of each other or going up and down on the floor, but not really bothering anyone. But you've got people looking mad at you like stop doing that.

LS:

What kind of place is this at?

CPG:

At the more commercial clubs or kind of events. I've actually had, it was really funny but we were in Spain and we were in a village club and it was really empty. There was hardly anyone there and my friend and I were dancing and I wasn't doing anything. Like I wasn't doing handstand or anything but it was a bit more contemporary maybe but I was really enjoying it but the bouncer actually came in and said, 'Don’t dance so much,' and I was 'Oh sorry, I thought you came to clubs, I didn't know you came to clubs to sit down.' And you do get the odd people who do like, who look at you like, maybe this is inappropriate for here or maybe you are taking away attention from them. Or maybe they’re very funny about you getting close to them. I don’t know, it’s really bizarre but I've had moments where people look down at you. Or times where they really appreciate you like, 'Oh wow, this is really cool.’ But more often or not, it’s people looking down at you, and being all like, especially if you get like, the Muscle Mary's - the big muscly men and the very uptight women.

VDS

I agree completely.

LS:

So do you think like at drum and bass events and the rock events, the people that might go to those events are a bit more live and let live as opposed to...

CPG:

Yeah.

VDS:

They go for the dancing. They go to enjoy the music.

LS:

And it’s about the dancing and not.

CPG:

About picking up or this or that. And people will join you. Maybe they can’t move like you and they’re like, can you teach me something or can you dance with me. And it’s about the shared experience of dancing or the music rather than looking amazing or other elements. It’s really about that.

LS:

Alright, in terms of the way you dance at these places, do you find your training has anything to do with it? Or is it an entirely different thing?

CPG:

I think the contemporary training definitely. Not in the more traditional sense. When we were training, we would maybe like think about a sensation we felt in the studio and improvise it. Or maybe you just think of the imagery. Because we train a lot in imagery in contemporary so you think maybe, 'Oh, I'm full of water and I'm dancing around,' or 'I’m following a light.' Or you know. I also think that when I was younger...

LS:

But you are young.

CPG:

I mean younger younger. When I was a baby when I first started training I did try to show off sometimes. That thing of ‘Oh do a pirouette now’ which would probably fall off because you were drunk and everyone would be like, ‘Oh wow.’  So there was a bit of showing off in the beginning but I don’t do it anymore because I'm embarrassed. But yeah, I do say not in these events that we were talking about but if I were in a posh club or in a gay club I sometimes would feel a bit embarrassed.

LS:

To show your training?

CPG:

No, no, no, not to show my training. The opposite. A lot more self-conscious than maybe someone that hadn't trained.

LS:

Why do you think that is?

CPG:

I don’t know. Maybe it’s because nobody knows that I'm a dancer but I think everyone knows and I kind of feel like I'm expected to throw all these amazing moves because I'm not very good at hip hop or street dance and many other things like the music they play at gay clubs. I'm not very good at doing all that. I can’t do at all actually so it makes me feel like a block.  Or like I should be able to dance in a Britney video. But I'm really not that kind of dancer. Last summer we were holidaying in Gran Canaria and we were watching this drag show every night and there’s this bit of audience participation where the drag queen comes out and takes a member of the audience. And I'm like, if that happened to me I would be terrified just because I kind of, just to go on stage and not have a choreography and to be put on the spot like that and I think people would expect me to do amazing dancing and I’d just be so embarrassed. And I thought all the other people who weren't trained in dance didn't have a problem with just going up and just looking silly but I think to be put on the spot and look silly for us might be harder for us than other people.

LS [to Victoria]:

How do you feel about that?

VDS:

For me it’s not like that. When I go dancing, I don’t really think. I actually don’t like that people know I am a dancer. It doesn't really affect me in this way. It just affects me to feel a bit like, 'Ok don’t move too much.' Yeah some people might think so they come and they did at some point. But when I train in a studio, then when I go dancing in a pub or whatever, I don’t think I really take it. Of course if my training helps me to understand how to move depending n the music maybe or like I have more freedom in my body. But I actually sometimes get more crazy and find more movement on a dance floor than a studio sometimes so for me it’s a bit the opposite. I take a kind of movement that I found at night dancing in a pub and I take it to the studio sometimes. So yeah for me, it’s a bit the opposite I think.

LS:

Alright.  Are you from Gran Canaria as well?

VDS:

I'm from Barcelona.

LS:

Do you guys go back often to Spain? Because I’d be interested to ask you how you find the social dancing in the UK as opposed to the social dancing [in Spain] Is there much of a difference in terms of how people [dance]? What’s the difference?

VDS:

Yeah. What we were talking about before about people judging you. In Spain, people judges you a lot. A lot!

LS:

Really?  More some times?

VDS:

Yeah. Here people look at you, the clothes you wear as much as in Spain. They don’t look at the way you dance, as in this person shouldn't be here. For me in Spain, people will look at you; they judge you more, well till they get a bit drunk and then everything is fun.  But yeah, it’s true.

LS: [to Carlos]

And do you find that too?

CPG:

I think it’s slightly different in Gran Canaria because it’s smaller than Barcelona and I think, one there’s not as many events as we go to here, like concerts or nights out so the offer of where to go is smaller. I think it’s more about the commercial salsa music there or the commercial kind of reggaeton, or different kinds of music. Obviously the rock concerts; a rock concert is a rock concert anywhere so that for sure is the same. I find though that in Gran Canaria I tend to go more gay clubbing cause there’s quite a big gay community there. And there I do have fun because it’s quite crowded and I do enjoy having a bit of a camp dance but I do think if we started dancing in Spain like we do here, when we talk about being a bit more contemporary, people would be like, what are you doing because they’re not used to contemporary dance or to seeing that kind of thing. I do remember one very, we were in a gay club once and it was one of those clubs were everyone was going bu-choomp, bu-choomp, bu-choomp and all the men were dancing the same and then eventually they played. It was getting towards the end of the night and everyone just started leaving. I think it was Fat boy Slim started playing, and I remember I started dancing with another guy there and we both went crazy dancing. It was almost empty and we were going raaaah, dancing around each other and going on the floor and it was really cool. We started chatting. He was from Leeds. So I thought something was happening here. We had the most amazing dance at the end when it was closing. There was hardly anyone there and it was because he was from England! Because all the other Spanish were just going dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. So yeah I think it’s different.

VDS:

A few months ago I went to Spain for a wedding and the girl was English from Chester and he was Spanish. And she came to me and she said, 'Oh Maria, I miss so much England and going dancing and getting crazy,' and I was like, 'Yeah, it’s true. Here in Spain you don’t feel like you can get as crazy as in England.' And she was like, 'You’re right. You’re right.  Really need to go and dance twenty four hours nonstop and just no-one will look at me and just enjoy the music and just enjoy moving.' And so we got a bit crazy at the wedding. But she was English and she was saying that also.

LS:

Why do you think it’s a bit more kind of like that in Spain?

VDS:

Probably because of education maybe, arts education. People understand the arts here more so they know music is art, dance is art. We know it, we enjoy it. We do it, it
doesn't mean you have to study it to enjoy it yeah but it’s not a bad thing to crazy. It’s just a way of expressing yourself actually feeling better for going Monday to work. You actually kind of let it go a bit. While in Spain, I think we will get there, but in Spain maybe…

CPG:

Yeah I think it’s that. For instance just in Gran Canaria, there’s not much of a dance culture, an artistic dance culture. There’s a lot of clubbing but not.. and I think that just that here it seems like, especially in a bigger city that people are used to seeing contemporary dance in other contexts. Or when they see you dance like that they’re like ‘oh wow’, and they appreciate more. Maybe they’re just more used to seeing break-dancers or body poppers so they’re more used to seeing dance in other aspects of life.

LS:

Do you think that it’s also because. I don’t know if there are shows about dance on TV in Spain but here there is also a lot of dance on TV.

CPG:

Yeah there’s a lot of like youth companies and B –boy companies and stuff and festivals. And I think people are more used to seeing dance on the street and in Spain they’re not so used to it so they find it a bit. They’re used to it in different contexts for instance in the South of Spain there is a lot of flamenco and that’s a social dance for them and it’s a very rich social dance but in places they don’t have that. I don’t know. Then it’s also true that I've lived most of my adult life here in England so I haven’t been there for so long, but from my experience of being there it is a bit like, a bit more contained.  But I do think that they have another kind of, it’s a more sexual dance in Spain. In the commercial aspect they do go a bit crazy with reggaeton or salsa and it’s very sexual which is very South American in a way and they get quite free in that sense.

VDS:

And they've kind of got the rhythm inside. Kind of I think.

CPG:

Yeah they kind of let go but it’s in a more sexual way maybe.

LS:

So you can let go and do that but within the structure of those dances. But if you let go in your own style or whatever, then they would look and say ‘what are they doing?’

Both:

Yes! Exactly.

LS:

Ok you both mentioned that you like drum and bass in terms of music. Are there any other kinds of music styles that you both really like to dance to socially? That always makes you want to get up on the dance floor and move?

CPG:

Electronic.

VDS:

To be honest, I really like anything. It depends on the moment. Sometimes I like cheesy music just for the silly stuff. But yeah, probably electronic music is the one that makes me move more.

CPG:

Trance.

VDS:

Trance is good and jungle. Even jungle.

CPG:

I do like as I said to you before, things like Motown or maybe eighties classic or things like that. Power ballads or things that you can be a bit silly.

LS:

Have you heard about the power ballads night in Camden?

CPG:

Aah no.

LS:

I’ll tell you about it after the interview.

VDS:

Salsa. I like to move my bum also. Salsa, rhumba. Flamenco.

CPG:

Only for moving here. I think whenever we get together, we have a party at home or we are in somebody’s, not very often but if we go to a Spanish night and we listen to very, stuff that you wouldn't listen to in Spain because it’s so cheesy. But here, I do think we kind of reconnect with our national identity by dancing so I think that there is something there where we feel like we’re home. It’s about linking with home.

LS:

Through those movements or through that music?

Both:

Yeah.

LS:

Now this is a really general question and every time I ask someone they go, how do you expect me to answer that? It’s quite broad but just curious to see what you think what kind of role dance plays in the society that you live in now? Just because dance has always played some kind of a role and for you guys, apart from your profession, what kind of role do you think it plays for the average person on the street? If you think it has such a role?

CPG:

I think there’s several. I think it’s definitely like an outlet for many people because it comes on the weekends normally or in the evenings. I've definitely used it as an outlet if I've had a very busy week. I also know, I’m not particularly a part of it, but I know for the gay community for instance, for many people it’s a problem, but it is something like a step towards sex. It is something that is very sexual.

LS:

Right like foreplay almost in a way.

CPG:

It’s foreplay and then you start doing and then you end up [having] sex or [going] to a sex party or something like that. And I know for a big part of the gay community, especially in London or big cities that it’s kind of like, the dancing itself is not very important. What you want is what happens afterwards. So it’s about being there being seen and then picking up and going and I think that is a very important part in that. But also for many other people in the gay community it is about having fun. It’s also about getting together with friends so yeah I think…

LS:

Just picking up about what you said about that because I think dance has historically played a part as a mating ritual in lots of cultures and you just talked about that within the gay community. Do you think that is still the case generally, not just within the gay community but in general? In  a lot of Western societies, a lot of people start experiencing social dance when they’re in their teenagers and with puberty and whether you’re gay or straight, they start interacting with the sexes, maybe in a different kind of way and becoming aware of them in a different kind of way. Do you think it’s still part of that mating thing or do you think it’s not so much?

CPG:

Yeah I think it is and when you look at it, it’s very animalistic. It’s a very animal kind of trait that we have. We want to disguise it in whatever but it is what it is.

LS:

And why do you think we do that through dance? Is it something that is just.. .why dance? Why not go to a movie together? Or sing together? I don’t know.

CPG:

I think it must be something anatomical, physiological or chemical about it.

VDS:

Yeah, something chemical. Yeah so maybe you have nothing in common. You have nothing to talk about. The chemistry like the way you understand the rhythm of this song or the way you move.

CPG:

Also the endorphins you’re creating. What’s happening in your body.  The fact that you’re sweating. Your heart is going. I think it excites you.

VDS:

Some people don’t really like dance and they don’t really socialise with dance so I think it’s the kind of people. Some people can do both but some people are better talking. Having a wine and sitting in a place. That’s the way they meet people.  But some other people maybe after the wine,they feel more confident dancing so maybe you don’t have to think too much about what you’re going to say. Let it go and see if you connect. You know, if you have this chemistry.

LS:

That just reminded me something in terms of wine. Do you guys feel that you dance more, do you feel better dancing if you've had a drink or taken something as opposed to being sober or does it not matter?

CPG:

Yeah. For me definitely, yeah.

VDS:

For me it was about what we were saying before. You sometimes feel a bit embarrassed of dancing too much and when you drink something or take something, you don’t really feel embarrassed anymore, that’s all. But if I play music in my room maybe with another dancer or with a really close friend or whatever I can get as crazy or even more if I’m drunk. But of course if you’re around people and what I was saying before, ok once you have drunk something, you don’t really care. But I can actually get really crazy without any drink, or anything.

CPG:

Yeah I kind of think that. With my partner who was a dancer, when we’re at home we can both dance and we do lifts and we do all those things. I do feel in a way when we’re doing that, and this is without alcohol or anything, it does make you feel like, I'm just letting myself be and I'm just having fun and I'm indulging in what I like and what I love. Obviously maybe you can’t go to a club and do a lift.

LS:

Well, you could.

CPG:

You could, but maybe us two we wouldn't. But is fun and I have found that like for dancing with partner as well, I have found that it’s been different from other partners I've had before because we have got that connection. That physical connection in a different way. And that’s without drinking or anything. So I think it depends on where you are.

LS:

Who’s around. Right, we’re getting to the end. Ok I’ll ask you one last question. So we've talked a lot about dancing. So in what kind of dance form do you guys best feel you are able to express yourself?

VDS:

Definitely contemporary. What is contemporary? Whatever. Yeah for me contemporary is just movement, so you can be silly, you can be really deep into something, you can be expressive. I think you can be not expressive at all. You can do whatever in contemporary dance. Basically because the technique is really, but we all know that technique is only twenty five percent of contemporary dance really. So yeah, I think contemporary dance of course for me.

LS: [to Carlos]

And what about you?

CPG:

I think contemporary for the same reason but I find the challenge in trying to express myself through ballet which I find quite exciting and Victoria will know that I have outbursts of ballet every now and then. But I love ballet also I didn't really train in it and I think that if I had started younger, I would have followed that path instead. I love watching ballet and many times if I'm very happy I might do a cabriole or I might do a pas de chat. But I think that in a way, when I do have these small outbursts of ballet, I am just expressing my inside. Because it’s what I love. For some reason I'm so attracted to it because unconsciously I find a way of expressing myself through it.  But it’s not the ballet I'm expressing, it’s just an expression of myself and I find the joy in it. For instance, this is very silly but when I'm low and sad, I think of big jumps in ballet and it makes me happy. Because it’s what I like to do the most. I like to jump. And if I can’t sleep, I think grand allegro and it makes me happy again so I sleep. I think there’s something there. For me to express happiness I think ballet is the thing. And excitement. 

LS:

Big ballet!

CPG:

Big ballet! Make me express happiness. But I know as a choreographer and everything, contemporary has a lot more options.

LS:

Ok great. Do you guys have anything else you want to say or any questions you have to ask of me at this point?

Both:

No.

LS:

Well thank you both very much for your time.